Why Work With Demons?

Psychology and Philosophy in Magic
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Why Work With Demons?

When I first started getting visited by spirits, I did not believe in them. First parasites and shit spirits came. Then Lucifer and Lilith. Then Bune and Gremori. I started learning about wtf was going on through the other forum, and that is the magickal framework that I absorbed. A modern form of ritual magick with demons from The Lesser Key of Solomon that pushed a new narrative; demons want to empower you and even love you.

The more I grow on this path, the more I am pulled away from this ideology. I adore Bune. And who could deny the might of King Paimon or Prince Orobas? But at the end of the day, these spirits were specifically classified as “evil” in a text that listed plenty of “good” and “mixed” spirits that can also be worked with. No need to cojolle and threaten and bind and be aggressive and watch your back. The original methods for working with these spirits mandated that you did. I’m not concerned about “morality”, so much as difficulty and reliability.

Why do we seem to only work with demons from the Lesser Key of Solomon, and not the demons from Grimorum Verum and the like? Is it because they were not popular in the published literature and online posts of the other forum? Why do we not work with the other spirits in the Lesser Key of Solomon, or the abundant intelligences of the Earth and the dead and the planets and the Gods and so forth? Have people tried and not gotten as good of a result, or have they not attempted it because of a collective adoration of the spirits of The Ars Goetia?

Why buy good apples from a guy that you know you need to bring a knife with you when you go, when you can get perfectly good apples from someone down the road who you don’t need to flex for? Is it because the stand is more popular? Is the added element of danger more exciting?

As a tangent, how did the original methods of demonic ritual magic get so stripped down? Demonolatry appears to be modern. From what I’ve gauged, most of us practice somewhere in between. These new approaches clearly work (I know firsthand), but I am curious about how they even came about.

I am very interested in everyone’s thoughts and opinions.

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Bingo.

The other day I had to call upon a Chinese ascended master. I don’t think I would have ever even thought about it without Hermes pushing me to “know more”. I find the idea of demons (as a general concept) wanting all the same damn thing (our own personal “ascension”) is a pure load of crap. I can accept the basic idea of agendas because everything bless (or cursed) with consciousness wants something (even if it is just food and water, like a lonely animal in the wild would want).

Some of them are quite dangerous, some of them have been make to look dangerous (I met Andras, doesn’t look all that psychopathic to me, or at least not more than the next guy). But doesn’t really look to me as if they have jobs to perform (something that does strike me true when talking about angels, may it be pure UPG, but it is what I think). So, why?

My conclusion is that working in our tasks can help, one way or another, to move forward their own agendas. But what do they want anyway? And how do we fit on it? Just something to think about.

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It may be because people tend to flock to similar places when they’re confused or seeking (more) knowledge, and those are the things that are there. Lesser Key of Solomon is just in so many more places and much easier to find for people casually searching things.

Other types of practices are also often—at least to some extent—closed, or if not the information is harder to come by than what permeates all talks of the darker sides to/of magick—the ‘more famous’ ‘demons’. Even in horror genre movies (please don’t judge me too harshly if I’m wrong here, I don’t watch horror but I hear about them regularly), there are so many Lesser Key spirits’ names entangled in films and horror stories. Depending on where people begin, it’s entirely possible the only thing they’ll come into contact with, or pay mind to, if they aren’t truly curious is Goetic spirits.

I’d like to say people pick with and stick to these spirits because either they’re too scared to branch out or because they’re too “devoted” to a certain system to move into others—but neither of those really stand up to scrutiny.

I’m writing something up on my journal right now (not posted yet) about something that overlaps with my answer here. I know I make trades with them for the things I receive in this world. I have never once believed that a demon has given me things simply out of the goodness of their heart. Maybe, I’m closer with some than others, but that doesn’t mean I’m not useful to them as well. I call things “gifts” when I receive them without explicitly asking, but I’m currently of the belief—and this may at some point change—that the more I give and the more I receive, the further I bind myself.

They are great, they are fun and bring amazing things into my world. They teach me and show me patience, kindness, and so many material gains. But, at the same time, there’s a lot more there. A lot that makes us—me, sometimes, and likely others, I’d guess others new to the concept of being demon-snacks especially or useful to them as well—more uncomfortable the more we consider it.

It may be that the less people go through the truly ceremonial rituals, the more power the demons gain over us and our world. It may be that we’re flawed for thinking we can run rituals however we want. And it may also be that something is different now than it was then, what I have no idea. When I brought ceremonial elements (not the whole thing, there was no way I could pull that off at 16) into my first Lesser Key Goetic ritual I was laughed at (that ritual was a significant amount of time—more than a year, less than five—after I’d begun my true exploration of and plunge into magick, although I don’t usually say that I think it’s relevant here). Sometimes I bring a bit of ceremonial in, but I don’t need it (I don’t feel) so I don’t use it usually, sometimes for fun on certain occasions though.

That said, the above only relates to my Goetic workings, I do other things as well that are another playing field entirely, things I don’t too often post about which is something else I wanted to mention. That a lot of people probably do participate in other things, but that for some reason (popularity, among maybe others or acceptability among a certain type of perceived peers and/or betters) people choose to speak more (loudly, proudly, etc.) on these spirits than others, also, as I’d mentioned before, gatekeeping (which I’m not sharing my stance on, just stating as an idea).

To this though. Because I have never felt so un-judged in my life as when I work with them. Not by myself, not by others, not by spirits. Because when I needed something, it was one of them that came forward and offered me the world. Because no matter who I am, I will always feel safe being only myself before them. And because I know, there’s no need for trust of who they are because they won’t lie about that, just as they don’t judge me for who I am, there’s no need to mask themselves either. When I go to them, I know exactly who I am going to.

These things said, I work with dragons (which I don’t post about), I work with some traditional style things from cultures I belong to (which I’m trying to post more about), I’m beginning to work with jinn in general (which I don’t post much about), I work with angels occasionally, I work with nature spirits though very rarely, I do energy workings (which I post about some). So, it’s not all demons, it’s just that’s what I publish to the internet most often. Why? A whole bunch of reasons.

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This was such a well-laid out and intriguing post. Thank you @Laurel_Spider.

I hadn’t considered that :thinking:
Something to ponder, for sure.

I look forward to reading it. In the meantime, I will savour this thought-provoking post :slight_smile:

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I think it’s partly because there’s more readily available information about those spirits you mentioned in ways that are more accessible for those starting out. They are not subject to Gatekeeping as much as others, like Laurel said. I think these results in a larger community of people that perform similar things. This results in producing more material in that vein and it snowballs.

As someone that has worked with several entities that have few practitioners outside of cultural practitioners, it’s a lot harder, more time-consuming - it takes more effort, the further away something is from the highly published Western Ceremonial traditions. It requires an amount of dedication that most dabblers aren’t looking for. They’d rather take the easier routes with more material. That isn’t a dig, but it is relevant.

It takes more dedication and it being a lifestyle to really step off that beaten, more easily seen path. It includes risk, without certain reward, and more commitment than people may be willing to bring to their practice.

There’s more material out about Necromancy than there’s ever been. How prevalent is it in actual practice? It requires more of one than bleeding on a sigil and tossing it into the fire, so there will be fewer genuine practitioners of it. You also aren’t going to find nice lookup sheets to call specific spirits, as those are more of a collection of relationships for each practitioner.

I think some of it is simply the drive of some of these big name spirits to be known and appreciated. Most of us dedicated practitioners know spirits that don’t want that type of fame or recognition.

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I’ll go ahead and say it. Once upon a time Christian theologians go their hands on several grimoires. The signature of the christian encroaching upon what was the mythology of the Hebrews is “demons love you”. It is like somebody adding a few verses to the end of the bible. “Demons only love you” is a lazy reflection of the “Jesus only loves you”. And I for one, am not a fan. This vacuum is what false teachers exploit.

“The truth-content of your posts is not measured by popularity”.

I’ll say it. The Goetia is something of a glowing idol to many. Some think “well what more do I need than this Goetia” which is the same bind and blind as a fundamentalist religious person going “what more do I need than my religion”. If any magickal system does not teach you to integrate and go beyond that system, I say it is bunk.

I’m reminded of the 1848–1855 Gold Rush in the state of california. If almost everybody (magician) is mining in the same darn section of land (the goetia), one might consider to tread to other lands in search of fresh ore and gems. As a rule of thumb, the less well known a grimoire or spirit - the better.

Yes. However, there are many options for a shady spirit. Every spirit no matter how much they talk about “destruction, blood, war”, if you send like an agape love to them - they all react to it. Most of the time, they look confused as if remembering something they forgot. I mean to say that even the most dangerous of spirits can be disarmed and enchanted with something as basic as love - which is an interesting way of side-stepping all the shows of authority of most magick.

Yes. People stand by the Goetia, as folks in my corner of the world default to being a christian. All people can do as they want to. However, this support is not borne of a conscious, self-reflective pontification, it’s just a matter of “well most people support xyz, so i support xyz”.

As the kids on twitter say, “a f**ked up origin story”. The folks I met who are great magicians, most of the time, had just an evil set of cards handed to them in life. I’m not glamoring or worshiping this, just an observation. For this reason, some folks just identify more with dangerous systems.

Recently, I have been working with the Islamic Iblis, going to a mosque, hanging out with the Shaitanic undead, and not a single thing I have been told about them has been accurate. I love going beyond the goetia because it brings me to the above. Maybe they respect my “street cred” but I’m finding angelic attributes in what have been called dangerous spirits.

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Some people are very much drawn to it as a path. I’ve noticed that people who work very heavily with demons and such were born when Mercury was severely afflicted (Especially, placed in Sagittarius of Pisces), which William Lilly says signifies those who perform Black Magick (when ill disposed, he signifies those “given to wicked ARTS, as Necromancy …”)

Although, the Renaissance view is that the Stars do not cause us to perform certain actions, but rather imbues us with certain qualities (and desires), which is what this quote I posted in my Journal was speaking about:

“The Passive Flint never yields any Fire, but when it is struck against the Active Steel"

–John Gadbury, The Just and Pious Scorpionist, “To the Reader” Page IV

As I posted about before, I do believe the Demons have a divine role, operating on the material world to ultimately keep everything running (although, how they do this is unpleasant to us, which is what makes them Demons). And really, I wish not to speak ill about any spirits unnecessarily. I don’t think that is right.
I don’t personally believe that these spirits are fallen or such, I believe that they have been around since the material world was complete (maybe even a bit before). I believe they are the spirits who rule over completing these unpleasant effects.

But because these spirits are so “low” in the Chain of Being, they are far less spiritually pure (And the infernals may have spiritual impurity).

Now, I personally don’t work with them, because I believe it would at least somewhat corrupt my sphere to work with them. And I do suspect that happens when they are worked with. Beings like the Gods and Angels (Those spirits who complete the effects of the Gods) are so high up that just interacting with them purifies us and raises us higher. And our earthly relationships (especially very close ones) influence us through spiritual means as well. Similarly, if a spirit has pure spiritual impurity, interaction with them also corrupts our sphere.

And so I say, often times those who work with Demons are ultimately led to betterment through torment. We’ve seen a lot of Demonolars and magicians who work with Demons in a more devotional way or who work with them without binding or the assistance of Angels, tend to go through a great deal of suffering. Although, not everyone I think, but it seems to be very common.

Now, the Solomonic Traditon, I’ve noticed, is very serious about power. It is about binding spirits to perform your will, and such things. Contrast that to something like traditional Astrological Magick (Which, gained popularity in Western Europe only in the Late Medieval Age and the Renaissance, as the Arabic texts were then recieved by Western Europe, while Solomonic works were very popular beforehand), where no protective circles or names of God are used before working with the Celestial Spirits, because these spirits are very benevolent (no protection is needed).

So, a Solomonic Path would also be appealing to people who seek power (And, we’ve seen a lot of newcomers on forums how they can recieve power through Demons, to live a kind of rockstar life). But a lot of people also like the dark aesthetic! I believe Odin is the most popular Norse God by far in modern culture, and some people are drawn to him because sometimes he is depicted as a sort of “Dark” God (Although, I don’t see him that way, or really any of the Gods!).

With that said, you seem to work quite heavily with the Gods, and no doubt that has had an effect on your sphere. Perhaps that light in your sphere draws you away from working with these spirits, and so you are wondering about this. It’s hard for me to say! You know yourself inwardly better than others do.

I also really like @Laurel_Spider’s post, because there is a sort of introspection there I think is great, and the rest of the post is great as well!

To conclude, my views on the role of Demons is not entirely set. If they are created by the God or the Gods, then I believe they have a divine role in the cosmos, in keeping the material world functional. But, that is not the only view. However, I do believe that there are necessary Demons who complete all ill effects in the world as a necessary thing, there are Daimons or Demons that preside over every moment (Angels as well), and just as the Guardian Daimon’s name can be found, the names of these Demons can be found as well through Astrology.

It is more the nature of the Demons of the Goetia that I am not entirely sure about yet. However, I like the Kabbalistic view of Impurity being protective of Holiness. With the Sephiroph as Fruits, and the Qliphoth as the protective Peels of the Sephiroph (“Qliphoth” literally meaning ‘Peels’, or ‘Shells’ in that sense)

As I said before, I don’t want to speak ill of any spirits unnecessarily, that wouldn’t be right! So, I wouldn’t say that these spirits are evil or such.

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Humans love to project. Necromancy is simply working with the dead. It is neither wicked nor holy. Now, most humans who call the dead do so to bring about harm. They pick up the hammer and strike down humans. Now, this does not make the hammer wicked. Necromancy is no more wicked than a hammer is evil. Necromancy has often been used for wicked ends, sure. It is accurate to say that pattern exists, not a law though.

Agreed! In alternate terms, certain potentials are “made” to be more likely, more accessible, closer to the person in question.

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The text I quoted is a Renaissance text, so “Necromancy” likely referred to Black Magic in general, rather than simply workings with the dead. Otherwise, the general practices of necromancy in those days.
As I understand it, ‘Nigromantia’, “Black Divination”, became synonymous with the word “Necromancy”. The “Necromancy” in the translation of Christopher Cattan’s Book on Geomancy seems to refer to Black Magic in general.

But, true about working with the dead being neither good nor evil necessarily.

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Compared to most people active here, I’m a novice so I’m not sure if my opinion is as valuable as the others. I hope my answer will make sense as it is basically rooted in my whole life.

My great grandma was a witch working with Earth spirits and was a Catholic too. And my grandma and mother was catholic. Despite being raised Catholic myself, during my formative years my mother has decided to start wiccan rituals. I grew up with an intense belief in both prayer and the mystical.

I also lived a very difficult life. And so I prayed. As a child, I prayed and begged Jesus and Yahweh. I wanted to be a nun. This intense devotion was due to my desire for a better and happier life. My prayers are unheard. It only got worse.

I come upon my teens and learned through the books my mother swore by and so I came across Grecian deities. I begged Aphrodite to help me get this man back, the only good thing in my life at the time.

I am unsure what I did to offend the goddess but what I got was a parasite sent by her instead. For 10 years, almost daily I get sleep paralysis and nightmares.

During the pandemic, it became stronger. I even felt the touch and saw the shadow man escape from my room one time even as I am awake. I had enough and had a friend assist me in removing these creatures and we were successful. That’s when I became less skeptic and more open minded.

I only figured out it was Aphrodite when the man I begged 10 years ago came back asking to see me. Begging me to visit him and continue our relationship.

A year ago, I encountered another issue in my life which made me desperate enough to try again. Demons was one of the suggestions that popped up online. I was amazed with the results.

No begging, no praying and no wasted offerings. I had a candle and a wish, and I was fully skeptical. King Vine responded in symbolism and I was not yet too impressed at the time. It was President Glasya Labolas who showed up and conversed to me, then gave me results in a week. He only wants chocolates. Then the others showed up too. They are proactive. They even tell me and offer assistance when the disaster is near future even without me asking. Years of me begging into air and getting 0 to show for it, meanwhile in a year I already had very visible results. With very little effort compared even to my first ritual and the rosary.

It’s true that one must not let their guard down with demons but the same can be said for deities. I find demons less spiteful than ‘gods’. I would argue and say no when I dislike the offered solution and push my way to my desired results. I have plenty of options.

As for why the demons that most people work with seem limited to Ars Goetia, my UPG is due to results + communication. I find it’s easier to communicate and understand the well known demons, most probably due to their exposure with humans and they know how to play nicer. I had encounters with Moloch who’s not part of Ars Goetia and he frightened me really bad only for me to find out he just wants to work with me in exchange for offerings. King Asmodeus however, who is quite popular, is a charmer and knows how to intrigue me so I will seek him out.

I also had an encounter with King Bael who is quite popular as well and with him is President Haagenti who is part of the Ars Goetia but I barely see anyone working with him. When he introduced me to Haagenti, King Bael told me I should be nicer/careful as Haagenti is not used to it.

King Asmodeus also gave me an explanation on as to why there are faster results with demons and deities that are lesser known versus those who are well known. I would not elaborate on this as even saying all these things seemed LARP but it is true and I tell it with no exaggeration or embellishments. It’s this type of ‘personal touch’ that has me, a skeptic for several years going back to the occult.

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There are a lot of explanations or reasoning as to why this or that class of being works faster than the other. But, it ultimately comes down to personal experience. Some say that Demons work faster than Angels, and for others it’s the other way around. Personally, I’ve mostly experienced the Gods, both Hypercosmic and Celestial, to bring their blessings very swiftly. The same is true of the Angels in my experience.

I’ve known someone who went all in with Neville Goddard’s works, followed everything to the letter, and couldn’t manifest a thing. Some others seem to have good results with it. So, I suspect it has to do with a power or quality of the soul in the individual. But, that is my reasoning.

I’m sure we have different perspectives on various things. I am influenced by Platonism, so I don’t believe that the Gods are ever spiteful or wrathful. Such ideas would have been strange to those Ancient Greeks and Romans. That is just a difference in view, which is fine.

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I was told before some are more inclined with one side than the other. I personally avoid gods or deities that are leaning towards the right hand path as I don’t have good experience with them. It seems like a waste of time. Prior to attempting my first ritual, I did my research for years at a young age and I was familiar with it even more so than demons. Demons I know less about and they worked for me and demanded less ‘payment’ so to speak. That experience with Aphrodite is enough deterrent to make me never work with any Greek deity ever.

It is possible that I am simply more inclined to the left hand path or my main demeanor and agenda is leaning towards the left hand path more. And for others there might be more of a balance or they lean towards the right hand path and so on and so forth. My best friend’s Catholic and she got great results even more so than myself. Although personally, her results and my results both come with a price to pay so nothing is really for free when it comes down to it.

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