@Dankquanicus I hope you don’t mind me tagging you here, rather than a pm. I was thinking about earlier conversation and what I understand about astrology.
Basically I understand how my birthday, exact time, and location pretty much not only determine who I am going to be but what I go through.
I’ve experienced too many times if I’d done it different I wouldn’t be here today, to believe these two things are unrelated.
I also under there’s more than the sun sign and that the placement of planets can have an energetic effect on the above.
Here’s where I get interested and lost at the same time.
So, given all these things then surely my precise birth information in relation to the Greater Timeline as a whole must also be of importance- more than likely way greater importance than the fact I am a Sagittarius.
So how do I figure this out? I think it’s my ultimate magic question at moment. How does my exact entrance into the physical realm in the greater timeline affect not only me but the timeline itself.
Firstly, we should consider that we have our own fate, but we are acting in greater cycles of fate as well. As Christopher Warnock puts it, we have our own fate, but we are also acting within the fate of our neighborhood, the fate of our city, the fate of our country, and so on.
There’s really many cycles we are acting within, and indeed any object, any city, or any action has its own fate which can be seen at the time it was initiated or “born”. This is part of electional astrology, which is the art of using astrology to choose auspicious times for initiating actions. This is also extremely important for the creation of astrological talismans, and is often used to time important events such as marriages so that they are fortunate, and in ancient times, the construction of entire cities was initiated under precisely chosen times, armies were stationed outside of cities to besiege them, etc.
But, everything can be timed so that it has a certain outcome. William Ramesey in his Astrologia Restaurata gives electional rules for cutting one’s hair, depending on if you wish it to grow back quickly or slowly. So, this is not only for the construction of cities and the coronation of monarchs, or other grand things such as that, but rather for all things that can possibly be done.
Now, as to determining your fate: The importance of looking towards the Sun is mainly in Modern Astrology, traditional astrology does not look towards the Sun as the primary indicator of character unless you were born with the Ascendant in Leo, or he was your Almuten Figuris, the Planet with the most power at the moment of birth.
There is one planet that is taken as the primary indicator of character during a person’s Birth, and that is the Lord of the Ascendant. So, Venus may be stronger indicator to overall character for a person, rather than the Sun in traditional astrology, if they were born with the Ascendant in Taurus or Libra. In traditional astrology, the planets have certain qualities depending on something called Essential Dignity, which is based on their position on the Zodiac. The Sign can be important if it afflicts the Planet or aids them, but there are also additional dignities. Fully, there is Sign, Detriment, Exaltation, Fall, Triplicity, Term, and Face/Decan.
Now, let’s say a person was born with the Ascendant in Libra, and Venus was also in Libra at this time and closely Conjunct the Ascendant (So, also strong in Accidental Dignity), this means that the person will love social interaction, often fall in love and become entangled in love matters, love drink, entertainment and sex (But, not excessively, as in the case of lust and gluttony), be friendly and gentle in social matters, not be one to cause fights or conflicts, often times be musical and affectionate.
Largely the same would be true if the Ascendant was in Taurus, with Venus similarly in Taurus and conjunct the Ascendant. So, there is not such a sharp focus on the qualities of the Sign itself, but rather on the whether or not it benefits or afflicts the Planet.
However, in traditional Natal Astrology, ALL factors (That is, all Planets, Houses, Aspects, etc.) are considered and have meaning. So, all the Planets also have some influence on a person’s character. It’s just some have a stronger influence than others depending on their position. For example, I often find people born with the Sun in Aquarius or Libra (The Sun’s Detriment and Fall, respectively) struggle more with insecurity and often try to compensate for this by trying to dominate others in one way or another to fill that insecurity (That is to say, it is ultimately about power and authority, two things the Sun embodies). This isn’t always the case, as a single factor like this is not to be relied on, but you can say it is something more often found in those born with the Sun in these Signs.
However, traditional natal astrology is not actually so focused on character to begin with. It is more focused on the events that will happen throughout one’s life, and I believe was originally used for medical purposes (Through Medical Astrology). The 12 Houses of Heaven reveal the areas of life of the native and how they will go. So you would look to the Sign that they were placed in and their Planetary Rulers, the position of the Planetary Rulers, their aspects, as well as what aspects are made with each house, and so on, to see how that area of life will go and what will happen in it.
I am not trained in or have not studied traditional natal astrology, so currently I can’t help with interpreting a natal chart much, aside from some general things based on the dignity and affliction of each planet. I have found, through Christopher Warnock, that when you work with a spirit of the nature of a Planet that was afflicted at your birth, it is common to experience negative side effects from the interaction, such as excessive anger for a time, or other difficult emotions like that.
And otherwise a huge amount of information is gathered from a natal chart, including the name of one’s Personal Daimon (Or, the Personal Daimon ruling over any thing or any moment. Including, for example, the Person Daimon assigned to this Forum at its inception). Agrippa gives methods of finding this in his Three Books of Occult Philosophy, Book III, Chapter XXVI.
According to Iamblichus, the Personal Daimon is the spirit who your soul chose to help infuse your soul to your body at birth, and has been assigned as your keeper throughout this life.
The traditional view is that the Soul has the capability to exert free will, but our Spirit is influenced by the Planets and other celestial factors. Our spirit is related to emotion, so when we are acting from our emotions, and our passions, we are acting under the influence of the Stars. And of course, how much of the time are we acting outside of our emotions, passions, and desires? So indeed, they are very related.
Apologies for the very long post, but there is a lot to unpack, but this will also give an idea of the complexity of this. So, essentially all factors in the Natal chart show the course of one’s life, and the 12 Houses of Heaven are the primary signifcators of each area of life for an individual, or a group, a nation etc.
You will also be apparent within the cycles of anything you play a part of. In a company, if you are the leader, you will be signified by the 10th House at the inception of the company. In your child’s life, you are signified by the 10th House during their birth as well. In a nation, if you are an ordinary citizen, you are signified by the 1st House. And, if you look at the moment the Sun enters the first Degree and Minute of Aries in any nation (This is called a Solar Revolution of a Nation or of the World, and reveals how any Solar Revolution will go for that nation), and the Ascendant is in Scorpio, and the 2nd House is in Sagittarius, and Mars is in 8 Degrees of Cancer (His Fall, and the Exaltation of Jupiter), and Jupiter is in 11 Degrees of Capricorn (His Fall, and the Exaltation of Mars), and Mars is applying to an Opposition to Jupiter here, you can say the people will suffer economically that year (Although, I have not thoroughly studied Mundane Astrology), likely through the actions of the people, chances are you will be caught in that, being signified by the Ascendant.
So, I am trying to say, you are moving with your own cycle of fate, within greater cycles of fate. All these things are harmonious with each other, rather than the individual having power over the other and causing unforeseen changes in it, which I assumed is what you mean by the Greater Timeline.
Good post. Astrology is hierarchal - its branches are constrained by each other in descending order of their scope. Not everyone who died in '45 Hiroshima had it explicitly shown in their natal chart, their fate was collectively dictated by the Revolution for that year. Likewise, no time can be elected for a person to buy the winning lottery ticket, If it’s not promised in their nativity.
The character of a native ought to be judged by his temperament, Lord of Geniture, planets posited in the 1st House, condition of Mercury and Moon, and Lord of The Ascendant, arguably in that order. One thing i’ve learned in my studies is that good astrology is simple, but it isn’t binary. Like you said later in your post, the whole Figure has to be assessed, in order to give good judgement. Nonetheless, you’ll get a much better picture of a person by considering his L1, than you would get by the dreaded sun-sign.
That’s a very good point and it needs to reach a bigger audience. It’s mind-boggling how Alan Leo single-handedly managed to erase more than 2000 years of tradition, and to this day have people convinced that the main purpose of astrology is to tell you what a special and unrealized snowflake you are amongst the barbarous horde of dimwits who just cannot get you!
It is worth to note that this isn’t the only “traditional” view. The “sign vs cause” debate has been going on ever since Hellenistic tradition was established. The earliest stance seems to have been fully deterministic and branded the spheres as causal agents of Earthly events, crediting Stoicism, yet this has always been a bone of contention amongst early astrologers, especially before Ptolemy published Tetrabiblos.
It’s great to have a response from a skilled and knowledged traditional astrologer!
This made me laugh when I read it, very good point! I must admit, I am not knoweldged on modern astrology or it’s history. Perhaps that was a blessing for me, going into traditional astrology, as most of my foundational knowledge on astrology came from astrological Geomancy.
That is true. In my post, I mainly speak from my tradition, which is following the astrology of Medieval and Renaissance Europe and the Islamic World. Of course, with the influence of Christianity and Islam, they held that there is free-will (although, with difficulty). This is also the case with Hermeticism, where the Soul of man was created by God, and so has the capacity for free will, being higher than the stars. But, our Spirit is influenced by them.
I personally tend towards the view that we have capacity for free will, but there is great difficulty in acting with free will. But of course some other traditional astrologers have a fully deterministic view, which is completely fine as well.
I have to confess I really don’t understand houses. I think it’s basically because I don’t understand why it is believed they represent what they do, I don’t know how they figured out this represents that, or like my birthdate, I get that because they give me a range of dates and tell me if my birthdate falls in that range, this is my sign. But I don’t understand the criteria basically, whenever it’s talked about I’m just like okay, but I don’t know what the fck this means at all…
That’s my tradition as well . I just find the ever so freely thrown around term “traditional” to be misleading, because as far as history is concerned, we’re all a bunch of moderns straying far from the true, luminous astrology of Mesopotamians. Like you pointed out, we can divide astrological thought into several periods, yet we can never agree on who has the right to that word, which undeniably comes off as high-brow.
My view ebbs and flows. One day i’m a fatalist, the next day I see the heavens as a story I have ignorantly penned. The former is certainly a lot more comforting, perhaps that’s the reason the Hellenistic bunch didn’t want to hear a word about free will; Looking at a poor radix and realizing you will be the sole entity responsible for that mess is most daunting. Medievals and Reneissancers used God as a coping mechanism, which isn’t that much different from a Stoic perspective.
The beauty of it is, it doesn’t matter, much like the debate about magick being a noumenon or an elaborate act of shifting the currents of your psyche. The important thing is, it works, and it works bloody well.
Very true, I am just used to referring to Medieval and Renaissance European astrology as “traditional astrology”, rather than to claim some kind of superiority. When I know there may be, for example, Vedic astrologers around, I tend to refer to it as traditional “western” astrology, but even then, of course that varies greatly by time period.
I agree in a sense, although my personal approach is a bit different. While astrological talismans and elections may give you great power and success, and the Great Work will let you turn base metals into Gold and allow you to become wealthy thereby or in perfect health with the Philosopher’s Stone, to me, these practices are ultimately about the perfection of philosophy. That is, seeing the nature of the cosmos, coming to understanding of it. While there is some subjectivity to it, there is also a great deal of objectivity.
And most of our traditions are in great harmony with each other in terms of philosophy. Even with the fatalistic view of the Stoics and the free will view of the Medieval/Renaissance Christians, there is harmony in this, because the Medieval Christians by no means suggest that we are always exerting free will. Rather, everything is governed by the stars to the point of it being near completely deterministic, but there is the capacity for free will in our Soul. But, the stars influence our spirit, which largely controls our emotions. And how often are we not acting out of our emotions and passions?
So I’m unaware of one tradition here that suggests everyone always exerts free will. If there is any effectiveness to astrology and divination, that implies the existence of fate. So even when traditions such as Judaism, which asserts there is free will, become exposed to astrology, they also develop a system of fate in their view.
There exists such a philosophy also. I believe Dorotheus was the closest to it, but I’m not sure to what degree. The way you reconcile astrology working and people having complete free will is you view the spheres as a book on your life, of which you are the author. It boils down to reading a chart as showing the choices you are going to make as a free agent. This can be logically consistent, even if you insist on complete determinism. It essentially takes the power from the planets, who act as mere signposts, and gives it to the person concerned.
It’s an interesting idea, certainly. I believe this is where practice comes in. If a person believes and claims that the planets are merely sign posts and they always act with free will, we should observe, how often are they acting outside of the influence of the stars? How often are they able to change the outcome of divination? Will they die in the manner the heavens foretold at their birth?
I believe the observation of this answers to the validity of their philosophy.
They cannot act outside of the planetary influences, because they don’t have any influence to begin with, within the scope of that philosophy. The planets just indicate what choices you’re going to make to arrive at your “fate”. You cannot cheat your way out of it, because what you see in the chart is inevitably what you’re going to decide in the end, albeit on your own accord. This was the view held by ancient Mesopotamians.
I suppose it depends on your definition of free will. What you’re saying relies on libertarian free will, meaning the ability “to do otherwise”, while the worldview I’m talking about operates on the basis of compatibilism. “Free will”, in that context, simply means making choices without any external factors obstructing your ability to do so.
An easy thought experiment to illustrate this in practice:
Imagine you are standing in a room with 2 doors in front of you. You can only choose one door you’re gonna walk through. You decide to walk through the left door. It turns out the right door was locked. This was pre-determined, you couldn’t have walked through the right door, but did it hinder your free will? You made your choice as a free agent. This is the essence of astrological compatibilism.
If both doors were unlocked at certain times, this adheres to partial determinism.
If a man was holding a gun to your head telling you to pick the left door or he’s gonna blow your brains out, that’s Firmicus and the only thing that can save you is conversion to whole signs.
. I just find the ever so freely thrown around term “traditional” to be misleading, because as far as history is concerned, we’re all a bunch of moderns straying far from the true, luminous astrology of Mesopotamians. Like you pointed out, we can divide astrological thought into several periods, yet we can never agree on who has the right to that word, which undeniably comes off as high-brow.