I think you are reading more into the tone of my post than I myself was actually expressing on the typing end. I have been an administrator on occult forums for several years when things were very much uncivil. This is not it. And that is my point. It’s gone to the other extreme, since this is just me sharing a conviction. If my conviction, that I have to say has had years to precipitate, is seen as uncivil, then I am afraid the real trolls won. Sorry, you felt offended. One thing I myself do not like, however, is when my own intent is seen as something so low as rageful or hateful. Yes, you can read my post as if I am spitting venom; but you don’t have to. Please try reading it again without the venom you apparently see in it.
That was the opinion I was expressing, as conviction. The extremes of aggressive and spiteful trolling on the one hand, and walking on eggshells on the other, are both destructive. I guess perception is everything. So I kindly ask that my posts are read with my intent in mind, because to assume I am being something that despicable (to me, since I lived those kinds of people) is itself an act of aggression…if you really think about it. But I take no offense because I realize where things stand, especially since it’s the result of forum members abusing the open community decades ago. So I don’t blame anyone currently. I am disappointed that this generation has not gotten over that so passionate conversation can flow. But I myself cannot capitulate to another extreme (to me) position. And I am being civil as I write this. Too bad. I found the topic interesting.
How would you describe your own framework? Would you say you work and study within a Christian framework, a Hermetic one, or a different one? Or would you describe what you do as largely syncretic?
That is an interesting view. In traditional Christianity, angels are usually described as having free will. For example, according to John Damascene:
Note also that the angels, being rational, are endowed with free-will, inasmuch as they are created, are liable to change.
(John Damascene, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book 2, Ch. 27, translated by E. W. Watson and L. Pullan.)
So would you say that Lucifer does have free will? Also, is Lucifer the same as Satan in your view?
Sadly, seems miscommunication is easy over text - I didn’t point to the rules to suggest you are coming off as uncivil, to be clear, I was pointing out that me and @JoSecundus are also adhering to the rules by being civil (Not that I think there is a reason to be uncivil here, but I meant that it wouldn’t comply with the rules as well if we weren’t being civil, more than just following etiquette). I don’t intend any negative tone with this message, I just wanted to explain the apparent miscommunication!
I definitely see your point and I do agree with that. Although, I don’t really see a reason to take the politeness back a notch in this conversation, if that’s what you mean?
Do you believe that the end goal of reincarnation is to reunite with the One? Do you also believe in a system similar to karma, in which consequences may have been passed on from the previous incarnation or will be passed on to the next one?
I actually usually see this as an indication that Church Fathers held the philosophers in high esteem and had a difficult time seeing them as hell-bound. However, not all Church Fathers thought this way. One of the most famous sayings on this is from Tertullian, who says:
Ok, I see what you mean now. I misunderstood you at first. Now, since you hold a monist worldview, would you also say that you believe that all the Gods are actually manifestations or something similar to that of something like the One?
Well, one reason is that I sort of intuitively see what John of Damascus meant when he discussed the relationship between free will and reason and agree with it. John of Damascus may have been the first Church Father that I read, if I remember correctly; and even if not, he was certainly the first one that I read who highly influenced my way of thinking. Furthermore, free will is something that I actually see as giving meaning to actions and to pursuits. Without it, to what extent are our actions and our very lives actually our own?
Now, with your view of fate and sin in general in mind, do you think there is any place for guilt in your framework? When I say guilt, I don’t just mean the feeling of it but actually being guilty in the sense of having gone against moral responsibility? Or would you say this type of thinking is foreign to your worldview?
I personally see it as a bit more complex than simply having the goal of uniting with God/The One - I believe that each of us have a purpose to fulfil in the world, that each of us play a part in the Cosmos, are here to partake in this life, and each add to the fullness of the Cosmos, and also that our actions matter - What we build often does not stop at our deaths, but establish a chain that may continue indefinitely. Ascending upwards and uniting with God is the end of the journey, but I believe that we are here for a reason as well (Which is also to say that I believe everyone and everything will eventually unite with God).
What do you believe is the purpose of this life?
I am open to the idea. Plato suggests a system like this in ‘Laws’, and I’ve read that he suggested the same in ‘The Republic’ as a possibility. I said before that I tend to think there is a Cosmic justice, at least, but this doesn’t seem to work in the same way as our legal systems. I’m afraid this is something I’m still undecided on, personally.
Hmm, I concede that that could be the case (Although, of course, it’s still very hostile to polytheists). I’m afraid I’m not familiar enough with most of the Church Fathers.
I’m also curious, do you believe they are hell-bound, and what are your beliefs regarding hell?
Oh yes, I believe that the Gods are part of God. I believe that the existence of the Gods, because of Their exaltation, is difficult to understand. Existence beyond space and time is naturally very different from what we’re used to. They seem to each be unique, but there are also no boundaries between Them. But, yes, I see Them as part of God.
From the perspective of us individually being incarnated in this life, not much, since in my view we adhere to the order of the Cosmos. But, this is not considering us as individual manifeststions of God who can also ascend beyond the Planetary Spheres and become free from fate, and partake to a greater extent in reality.
What do you mean by moral responsibility?
I was also curious, since you have expressed before that you see the Gods the polytheists worship as Demons, following Christian tradition, and that there are Angels, and they are a big part of the Cosmos - There are traditionally Angels of the Planets and other Celestial Bodies and natural forces, so what determines, in your view, whether a person is contacting an Angel or a Demon? Since the Planets are worshipped as Gods and many other natural forces as well. The Dawn, as another example, is also worshipped, so what if someone is praying to the Dawn? What determines whether they are contacting an Angel or a Demon?
I was also curious from your views on free will, what is your view on truth? That is, what makes you consider that some views are true? Or, do you not believe that ideas about the immaterial world are strictly true? Since you expressed that you would reject a system of belief simply whether it teaches free will or not, but so far it doesn’t seem like you approach this from logic or another reason for believing in free will?
For example, experience plays a role in how I accept some beliefs or not, and my practice in divination and traditional astrology play a big role in my belief in fate, but I also don’t think basing everything on personal experience is wise, and we’ve seen examples of this among occultists who go too far by trusting everything they see and hear in a spiritual context. However, I also don’t believe that there is one singular objective spiritual reality, nor do I believe that everything is subjective either, and this also comes in part from my practice in traditional astrology - Both Western and Eastern systems of astrology work, despite at times being very different, and the Jyotisha system of Nakshastras has strong effects, and so does the Western system of the 28 Mansions of the Moon, but I’ve seen that some systems in the Western tradition are more accurate than others within the wider system of traditonal Western astrology.
I think the purpose of this life ultimately is in becoming. You may be aware of this term, but theosis is this process of man becoming divine. On the other hand, there is man becoming demonized. Although there is no official term for becoming demonized, I have heard the word “demonosis” being used to describe it. I would also suggest the possibility of using diabolosis (becoming like the Devil). Whatever the case, I see the purpose of life as choosing where you stand and participating in this spiritual order to become something ontologically different.
Would you distinguish between cosmic justice and divine justice? There is certainly an idea similar to that of karma in the Bible:
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
–Galatians 6:7, 8 ESV
Well, this can definitely become a deep discussion. Well, on one hand, hell can be considered to be simply the place human souls would typically go after death. Hell, as I’m sure you know, is basically the Germanic word for Hades and Sheol. In my opinion, Hell, Hades, and Sheol are all the same place, even if they’re described differently in different places.
Now (again, this discussion can go pretty deep), most Christians actually are not aware of the traditional understanding of the afterlife, at least in my experience. Humans are not supposed to live in heaven forever, contrary to what many think. Paradise is also not the same as heaven. Paradise is the anglicized form of the Greek word paradeiso which means “garden,” particularly in this case, the Garden of Eden. The Garden of Eden is the place on earth where heaven descends. Taditionally, all of humanity will be resurrected, and those whose wills are aligned with God will go to live on an earth that has been renewed and fully made like Eden (or Edenized, to make up another word).
With all that said, Hell, not just in the sense of the place where the dead go in general, is one’s perception of the presence of God, specifically from the view of the demonized. Jesus himself says: “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41 ESV). This has been held by many Christians to indicate that Hell, or actually probably the Lake of Fire, was not made for humanity originally, but since humanity fell, there are now only two paths one can go. To briefly explain the Lake of Fire, I’ll cite this Scripture: “Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14 ESV).
I can go on and on on this subject (maybe even write at least a treatise on it), but in the interest of saving time, I’ll try to answer your question as simply as I can. The philosophers did have some concept of God and certainly attempted to follow what they knew of him. Therefore, it is likely that they were closer to being divinized than demonized. However, I am also no judge of the human soul and am not in a position of authority to determine where anyone but me will go.
By this, I mean is there a sense in your view of anyone being truly culpable for wrong actions? For example, in a court room, it would generally be held that someone who planned on murdering someone and went through with it, is fully responsible for his action. You can say that guilt is assigned to him and that the fault lies completely on him because of the decision he made. You may understand that slightly differently, since you of course have a different view of free will.
I agree that there are angels behind the forces of nature and even behind the laws of nature. Now, there is a sort of impartiality among these angels, as Jesus says: “For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matthew 5:45 ESV). With this in mind, I think that it is possible for Pagans to pray to the angels of nature and to receive blessings in return, according to the will of God. What might be the bigger issue in the Christian view is whether they are worship them, and Christians would say that angels actually do not accept worship. I think that the angels of nature are an exception to the general rule of the Polytheist’s Gods being demons.
With all of that said, I actually do inquire of demons (although I think my case, usually a demon).
For me, on a more personal level, finding meaning and purpose is probably just as important in my journey as finding truth. I see all of reality as a narrative made up of smaller narratives, or a grand pattern of patterns. Because of this, truth is connected to wisdom, which is the ability to see these patterns. The ideas of the immaterial world, then, are not only strictly true but are more true than the material world, if such a thing can be said. I would go so far as to say that some of these ideas are meta-truths, for lack of a better word.
You’re not referring to that other, nameless forum are you - the one from which I was banned? When I read that sentence it was like my whole world collapsed around me! Hope you’re satisfied.
Anyway, the rest of your stuff was good. Keep it up.
Al.
Ps. I don’t remember welcoming you, so I do now.