Philosophy of Magick and the Occult

[JoSecundus]

I am someone who tries to establish philosophical and metaphysical grounds for my beliefs and practices. As such, I especially attempt to base my occult beliefs and magical practices on on philosophy and metaphysics and to place within a broader framework, in which I can properly place my experiences and observations. For example, I personally prefer to work within the Christian framework, although my beliefs and practices would largely be considered unorthodox or taboo at best. Now, when I say I work within the Christian framework, I mean that I use Christian terminology and concepts gathered from various sources of past Christendom and Christian tradition (such as, demons, angels, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Heaven, and Hell).

In the metaphysical aspect of my work, this enables to maintain consistent identifications and definitions. Furthermore, I am able to ground my work on philosophical foundations by establishing set beliefs and principles that I take to be true, on which I can build my practices. For example, by taking the principal notion that angels, demons, and other spiritual entities exist, I understand that the world is alive and full of agency; and when I take the working (or energies) of these beings to be active in the world, I now I have a foundation for engaging in magical and occult practices.

In all this, I hope to search out the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, or as it is called in the book of Enoch, the Tree of Wisdom, so that I may know true from false, reality from illusion. I desire to see behind the veil and participate in true reality. Now, wisdom is not merely the application of knowledge, but it is the ability to see the patterns of knowledge and the patterns which underlie reality. In that way, all of reality is actually symbolic. This is also the basis of occult knowledge and wisdom, that is, seeing and understanding these hidden patterns (the word “occult” meaning hidden") and making use of them. It is understanding that the world is not merely a chain of mechanical cause and effect or a series of random events but rather a grand narrative made up of smaller narratives.

I discussed this in another online forum. There, someone mentioned that a lot of people often see these things subjectively and made a distinction between subjective and objective reality. This is not what I mean by distinguishing reality (or true reality) from illusion. If anyone wants to know more of my thoughts on that, I am willing to share those. However, this is enough to introduce the topic, I think.

[Dankquanicus]

It’s always great to find other magicians who follow a more pre-modern spiritual (As opposed to materialist) philosophy! Not that I think modern approaches are wrong, but I myself also follow a more Platonist and Hermetic World-View as well. Although, not as much on the Medieval Christian and Islamic side, but rather the polytheist approach that the founders of Platonism and Hermeticism followed.

Would be great to see what more you write on here!

[JoSecundus]

Yes! And I’m excited to see what discussions this can bring about. I would also be interested in knowing more about other philosophical approaches as well.

Also, contrary to what many people, even Christians, think, the Christian framework is not truly monotheistic. A lot of critics of Christianity even point this out, but really monotheism is not important and is inaccurate, at least in my opinion. Traditionally, there is a place for the gods in Christianity. In fact, there is not a difference in substance between the gods and the angels in traditional Christianity.

Now, although I have just defended traditional Christianity’s relationship with Pagan and polytheistic traditions, I would probably be considered to be on the Left Hand Path, as it is often called. For example, the idea of searching out the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and seeking to look behind the veil (which is also a symbol in the Bible, as in the Holy of Holies) can be seen as sort of a Left Hand endeavor, although it is worth noting that Solomon asks for this as well (see 1 Kings 3:5-9; 2 Chronicles 1:7-10). Furthermore, I agree with our fore-mother Eve’s observation “that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise” (Genesis 3:6; cf.1 Enoch 32:3, 6). Even God says: “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:22).

It is also worth noting that there tends to be at least two strains of magical knowledge in the Christian tradition. For example, in the book of Tobit (part of the Catholic and Orthodox canons), the archangel Raphael teaches Tobias what can be called magick to ward off Asmodeus, namely by using the ashes of incense and the heart and liver of a fish and making smoke to produce a scent (Tobit 6:17). God also used to be reveal his will through the Urim and the Thummim (divination). However, the book of Enoch tells of angels who shared hidden knowledge with humanity but were punished for doing so (see 1 Enoch 7, for example).

[Dankquanicus]

@JoSecundus

Traditionally, there is a place for the gods in Christianity. In fact, there is not a difference in substance between the gods and the angels in traditional Christianity.

Some do point to a similarity between the invocation of Angels and the worship of Gods. However, most polytheists in the Western World (At least) did not understand Them to be similar. In Christianity, as far as I’m aware, Angels are generally seen as mediators or communicators (Implied by the very name “Angel”, which of course means “Messenger”), which is to say, they bring the influences of God, Heaven, or the Divine Ideas into the World.

However, Gods were generally seen among the Ancient Greeks and Romans and Mediterranean peoples (As far as I’m aware) as creators. They are the causes of things.

In Platonism, there are Angels part of the chain of each God, but the Angels are set beneath each God. So, the chain would go: God > Angel > Daimon. Some philosophers quite vastly expand the chain, but this is one very basic framework. Additionally, you could say (Following a more Platonist view) that that the Material World is the material body of the Gods. For example, you could say that all doorways and passages are part of the material body of Ianus; Roses are part of the material body of Venus; All Stars, Lightning, and Rain are part of the material body of Iuppiter (Or, following a Stoic view, everything is part of the body of Iuppiter).

Here’s a nice Orphic Fragment that is a nice example of one Ancient Greek view of the Gods:

Zeus is the first. Zeus the thunderer, is the last.
Zeus is the head. Zeus is the middle, and by Zeus all things were fabricated.
Zeus is male, Immortal Zeus is female.
Zeus is the foundation of the earth and of the starry heaven.
Zeus is the breath of all things. Zeus is the rushing of indefatigable fire.
Zeus is the root of the sea: He is the Sun and Moon.
Zeus is the king; He is the author of universal life;
One Power, one Dæmon, the mighty prince of all things:
One kingly frame, in which this universe revolves,
Fire and water, earth and ether, night and day,
And Metis (Counsel) the primeval father, and all-delightful Eros (Love).
All these things are United in the vast body of Zeus.
Would you behold his head and his fair face,
It is the resplendent heaven, round which his golden locks
Of glittering stars are beautifully exalted in the air.
On each side are the two golden taurine horns,
The risings and settings, the tracks of the celestial gods;
His eyes the sun and the Opposing moon;
His unfallacious Mind the royal incorruptible Ether.
-Translated by I.P Cory, Ancient Fragments, “Orphic Fragments”

I at least can’t say I’ve seen Angels described similarly.

@JoSecundus

Furthermore, I agree with our fore-mother Eve’s observation “that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise”

I haven’t read Gnostic texts myself, but I’ve heard or read that some of the early Gnostics (Not sure which tradition, I’m afraid!) saw the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as good. So, they may have shared that view!

@JoSecundus

For example, in the book of Tobit (part of the Catholic and Orthodox canons), the archangel Raphael teaches Tobias what can be called magick to ward off Asmodeus, namely by using the ashes of incense and the heart and liver of a fish and making smoke to produce a scent (Tobit 6:17). God also used to be reveal his will through the Urim and the Thummim (divination).

While some Christian and Jewish texts forbid forms of magic, it interestingly seems to mainly be modern Christians who are especially wary of anything that could be called “magic”. Medieval Christians not so much. For example, even Albertus Magnus, who is considered a saint and one of the Doctors of the Church, gave instructions on how to make various astrological talismans in his ‘De Mineralibus’, but did not come under fire for this. Marsilio Ficino, a Renaissance Catholic priest, similarly wrote books that give instructions on how to make astrological talismans and endorsed them but did not come under fire by the Church, etc.
“Magic” is a rather complicated topic with a difficult definition when it comes to pre-modern religious practice in general.

[JoSecundus]

@Dankquanicus

Some do point to a similarity between the invocation of Angels and the worship of Gods. However, most polytheists in the Western World (At least) did not understand Them to be similar. In Christianity, as far as I’m aware, Angels are generally seen as mediators or communicators (Implied by the very name “Angel”, which of course means “Messenger”), which is to say, they bring the influences of God, Heaven, or the Divine Ideas into the World.

It is true that the gods of the polytheists were seen to have a different function than the angels, which is why it is important to clarify that they have the same substance. Furthermore, in orthodox (small “o”) Christianity, the gods were basically fallen angels or demons. The general idea is that some angels who were given authority accepted worship for themselves and became corrupt. This is clearly expressed in one of the Psalms: “God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?” (Psalm 82:1, 2 ESV). Also, it is evident in this Psalm that God is talking to the gods of the Pagans: ‘I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince”’ (Psalm 82:6 ESV). There is also rhetoric against the gods as being creators in Genesis where it says that God created the heavenly bodies, such as the sun and the moon, basically saying that he created the deities associated with them. Now, my point is only to say that Christianity does address these ideas and does take into account Pagan notions. I am not really trying to argue for orthodox Christianity over Paganism, as you will see below.

@Dankquanicus

While some Christian and Jewish texts forbid forms of magic, it interestingly seems to mainly be modern Christians who are especially wary of anything that could be called “magic”. Medieval Christians not so much. For example, even Albertus Magnus, who is considered a saint and one of the Doctors of the Church, gave instructions on how to make various astrological talismans in his ‘De Mineralibus’, but did not come under fire for this. Marsilio Ficino, a Renaissance Catholic priest, similarly wrote books that give instructions on how to make astrological talismans and endorsed them but did not come under fire by the Church, etc.

It seems as if Protestants in particular had a huge problem with magick. (This is very clear, for example, in King James I of England’s Demonologie.) However, I am personally willing to engage in forbidden practices within Christianity, such as necromancy, and am willing to learn knowledge from the Demons. This is also why I say that I am on the Left Hand Path, and this is why I say that I study the occult and practice it from within the Christian framework rather than saying that I study and practice Christian magick.

[Dankquanicus]

@JoSecundus

It is true that the gods of the polytheists were seen to have a different function than the angels, which is why it is important to clarify that they have the same substance.

I wouldn’t necessarily say “function”, depending on what you mean. But it seems I misunderstood what you mean by substance! What do you mean? In any case, the Gods and Angels were understood to be different in nature.

@JoSecundus

Now, my point is only to say that Christianity does address these ideas and does take into account Pagan notions. I am not really trying to argue for orthodox Christianity over Paganism, as you will see below.

Oh yes, I understand that orthodox Christianity has its own views about the Gods, but they don’t see Them as Gods, really. In orthodox Christianity, as you said, they see Them more as how the Greeks would have seen Daimons, except evil, and “rogue”, while in other cultures the Gods tend to be seen as creators (causes) of the World, without mentioning anything further about the theological views regarding the Gods’ existence.

Although later on, some Renaissance Christians had pretty different views about the Gods.

@JoSecundus

It seems as if Protestants in particular had a huge problem with magick.

It was definitely a point of discussion during the Protestant reformation! In the English works on natural magic that I’ve read from the time, they often spend a good while defending the practice, so I imagine there were certainly people very wary (And often skeptical, since this was right before the Enlightenment) about some of these practices. Although, most seemed to be familiar with Agrippa’s De Occulta Philosophia, since in books like John Heydon’s ‘Theomagia’ the source isn’t even cited when he copies entire sections from Agrippa’s work (While he often does cite sources otherwise). But, there were plenty of works of magic that didn’t come under fire from the Church, Theomagia being one of them. It gives the sigils of various spirits and instructs how to make talismans and such, and as far as I’m aware John Heydon did not come under fire and Theomagia was actually printed. There were also plenty of works on natural magic. I recall a book on the powers of stones from Nicholas Culpeper, for example. But of course natural magic was more accepted in general.

[JoSecundus]

I think that perhaps we might be using terms differently, which is very prone to happen in philosophical discussions. To define what I mean by “substance,” I mean something more similar to the essence or what-ness of a thing. Thus, I would say that angels and Pagan deities are considered by Christians to be same in essence, in the same sense that a king and a peasant both have a human essence. I was probably unclear in what I meant by “function.” To elaborate, I meant to say that in response to your saying this:

@Dankquanicus

In Christianity, as far as I’m aware, Angels are generally seen as mediators or communicators (Implied by the very name “Angel”, which of course means “Messenger”), which is to say, they bring the influences of God, Heaven, or the Divine Ideas into the World.

I meant something similar to the fact that humans can have very different functions from one another in that one functions as a blacksmith while another functions as a farmer. However, they are both essentially humans. Similarly, the angels and gods have the same essence, although they play different roles. At least, this is the case in traditional orthodox Christian. This is, of course, based somewhat on the idea that demons are fallen angels. That the gods are demons (again, in orthodox Christianity) is perhaps most clearly said by Paul:

What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

–1 Corinthians 10:19-21 ESV

Now, I personally inquire of the demons quite often, while still referring to them as demons. Also, the idea of the demons being fallen angels is much more complex than most Christians realize. For example, Satan and his angels seem to have not been cast down from heaven until the nativity of Christ, as described in Revelation 12. However, Jude says: “the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6 ESV). In other words, evidently not all angels were punished simultaneously. Furthermore, there were demons roaming the earth although some were chained already, which is clearly seen in the earthly life of Jesus, who is said to have cast out demons many times.

[Dankquanicus]

@JoSecundus

Thus, I would say that angels and Pagan deities are considered by Christians to be same in essence, in the same sense that a king and a peasant both have a human essence.

I believe I see what you mean now in context of your entire message. It seems the general Christian understanding of what a God is very different from the polytheist understanding. So, I was speaking of the difference between how Ancient Greek and other Mediterranean polytheists saw the Gods compared to the Christians. Of course, how Christians consider Gods is just a matter of how They are considered within Christianity. With that, I don’t quite see a place for the Gods as polytheists understand Them within a Christian framework (What started the conversation). The Christian view of Them is not what the Ancient Greeks and Romans etc. would have called a “God”.

[JoSecundus]

I don’t want to get off topic with this conversation, so I’ll simply say this:
Imagine that there this a someone who is crowned king after some controversy or conflict. There will be a side who says that he is the true king, and there will be those who say that he is a usurper. Furthermore, both may have different narratives and different claims to back up what they believe, although they are both referring to the same person. This is similar to the difference between how Christians and Pagans view the gods. The Christians see them as usurpers making false claims whereas the Pagans see them as telling the truth and as being true kings, but both sides are referring to the same entities.

Now, I want to turn the conversation closer to magick: how do you see the gods (or Gods) interacting with us, and how does magick work in relation to the Gods if they are the ones who are the sources of magick, especially in comparison to materialist forms of magick or at least forms of magick that don’t require any being to be behind it?

[Dankquanicus]

@JoSecundus

I don’t want to get off topic with this conversation, so I’ll simply say this:

Oh I’m not arguing or anything like that, to be clear! Just in case I gave that impresion. I just wanted to point out the orthodox Christian view of the Gods would not make them Gods to the polytheists the Christians lived near/with in their early history. The Greek and Roman polytheists believed in their own classes of beings, including Angels and Daimons (But, Daimons were not seen as evil or rogue, although there were “Evil Daimons”, and Alexander of Aphrodisias says in ‘Problems’ 2.46 that evil Daimons were more free during eclipses since the light of the Sun and Moon keep them back. I know one source says that just the names of the Gods cause evil Daimons to flee).

Of course, some Christians later on saw the Gods more like the Roman and Greek polytheists did. Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa and Marsillio Ficino seemed to view Them far more positively, and neither as Angels nor Demons, for example, and taught how to pray to Them. I know Ficino saw the Seven Planets very similarly as all encompassing and similar to organs of the body of the Cosmos. Agrippa certainly also saw the Planets as all encompassing, since he says They actively rule over all things.
I believe both Ficino and Agrippa also considered Orpheus as a prophet, if I’m not mistaken!
Their views were far more Hermetic and Platonist (Ficino was the first one to translate both the Corpus Hermeticum and many of Plato’s dialogues into Latin, so it makes sense!), but they were both Catholics (Ficino being a priest, actually).

@JoSecundus

Now, I want to turn the conversation closer to magick: how do you see the gods (or Gods) interacting with us, and how does magick work in relation to the Gods if they are the ones who are the sources of magick, especially in comparison to materialist forms of magick or at least forms of magick that don’t require any being to be behind it?

I personally follow what Plato says in ‘Laws’, that everything is governed by the Gods. This is also shaped by my practice as a traditional astrologer, as in traditional astrology the Planets and Stars constantly bring Their influence into the World (There are non-causal views of astrology, Plotinus was one proponent of this as he discusses it in the Second Ennead). I believe that the Gods do bless us with things if we petition Them, but that They will not do anything unjust or make us unfortunate, and that prayer elevates the Soul and brings us closer to the Gods:

The extended practice of prayer nurtures our consciousness (νοῦς), greatly enlarges our soul’s receptivity (ὑποδοχή) to the gods, opens for human beings the things belonging to the gods, accustoms our eyes to the brightness of divine light, and gradually brings to perfection the capacity of our faculties for contact with the gods, until it leads us up to the highest level of consciousness. It gently elevates our habits of thought and imparts to us those of the gods. It awakens persuasion and communion and indissoluble friendship, augments divine love, and kindles the divine element of the soul. It cleanses (ἀποκαθαίρει) all contrary tendencies of the soul and casts out from its aethereal and luminous vehicle (αἰθερώδους καὶ αὐγοειδοῦς πνεύματος) everything inclined to the realm of generation. It brings to perfection good hope (ἐλπίς) and conviction (πίστις) concerning the light. And, in a word, it renders those who employ prayers, if we may so express it, the familiar consorts of the gods.
-Iamblicus, On the Mysteries 5.26.238.12-239.10; translation by Brian P. Alt, https://www.patreon.com/posts/iamblichus-on-95741737

I believe that the Gods need nothing, being the givers of all, and that it is simply Their generous nature to give:

States pay reverence and honour to their priests because they ask blessings from the gods, not for themselves, their friends, and their families alone, but for all the citizens in common; and yet the priests do not make the gods givers of blessings, for they are such by nature; the priests merely invoke them.
-Plutarch, ‘A philosopher ought to converse especially with men in power’

I do believe that setting up an altar with appropriate images, colours, and sacrificing appropriate incense and really just incorporating everything appropriate does more readily attract the attention of the Daimons of the Gods, but in practice I can’t really say I’ve seen this make much of a difference. The Gods have answered prayers strongly still with simplistic ritual. But, it at least makes sense to me!

Since I practice traditional astrological magic, I also believe that the Celestial Gods have certain images that symbolize Their power or particular powers, and when these are brought into the World they sympathetically have influences on us and things around us. Following a more general Medieval/Renaissance view down this line, I believe that the Gods (They saw this as coming from the Planets and Stars, and I see it as coming from Them and also the Gods beyond the Celestial World) are the source of the powers of plants and minerals and all materials, and also that particular animals, plants, and stones form part of the material body of the Gods.

What are your views on how Angels and Demons interact with us?

[JoSecundus]

@Dankquanicus

Oh I’m not arguing or anything like that, to be clear! Just in case I gave that impresion.

If anything, I thought it was more of a friendly debate. I think our conversation has been very civil and beneficial so far.

@Dankquanicus

I believe that the Gods do bless us with things if we petition Them, but that They will not do anything unjust or make us unfortunate, and that prayer elevates the Soul and brings us closer to the Gods:

I see, so you see prayer as being less mechanical and more personal.

@Dankquanicus

I believe that the Gods need nothing, being the givers of all, and that it is simply Their generous nature to give:

The quote above and the one before sound similar to the Christian idea of what prayer is. Do you see any significant difference between the type of prayer you’ve described and Christian prayer, besides the number of Gods of course?

@Dankquanicus

Following a more general Medieval/Renaissance view down this line, I believe that the Gods (They saw this as coming from the Planets and Stars, and I see it as coming from Them and also the Gods beyond the Celestial World) are the source of the powers of plants and minerals and all materials, and also that particular animals, plants, and stones form part of the material body of the Gods.

So, would you say you’re defining what a body is as something which acts as a means to interact with the world and with other things in the world? Or in what way are you defining what a body is? I have thought about this before, and it is a very interesting concept to me.

@Dankquanicus

What are your views on how Angels and Demons interact with us?

I’ll answer this in a different reply to keep things organized and so that this one doesn’t get too long.

[JoSecundus]

@Dankquanicus

What are your views on how Angels and Demons interact with us?

One way in which they interact with us is through our thoughts, since I am convinced that our minds are spiritual and not material. If someone has discernment, they can know which thoughts are from angels, which are from demons, and which are from God or from another source. In this, the way in which they communicate with us is subtle and is not always accompanied by a material manifestation.

However, I do believe that even the archangels can appear as humans at times. This is evident in many parts of the Scriptures. For example, in the book of Tobit, Raphael appears as a man and even conceals his identity as an archangel until after he has helped Tobias. The writer of Hebrews also says: “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares” (Hebrews 13:2).

It is also clear that the angels and demons have names, meaning that they can be invoked directly in prayer.

Also in the book of Tobit (which is one of the best biblical books to read on magick, angelology, and demonology), it appears as if Asmodeus actually has the ability to feel and express emotion, since Tobias says: “For a demon loves her, and he does not harm anyone except those who approach her” (Tobit 6:15 SAAS). This means that demons at least can be quite personal. There is also precedence for this if one takes the Enochian interpretation of “the sons of God” in Genesis 6 as referring to spiritual beings: “the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose” (Genesis 6:2 ESV).

Now, concerning prayer to angels in particular, I believe that they ultimately lift up your prayers to God and act according to the will of God. For example, in Revelation:

“Another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel”

–Revelation 8:3, 4 ESV

As for demons, they may act according to their own wills and answer our prayers to them as they will, even against the will of God. Of course, this view depends on a view of free will. I believe that both humans and demons have wills which are free, so that we can act independently, even against the will of a higher being. It is also possible for them to reveal things which are hidden from us. For example, I practice dream interpretation, which comes from a demon.

With all that said, most of my practice of magick is based in invocation and meditation, since I believe that manifest apparitions are exceptions more often than they are the rule. Furthermore, in developing intuition and discernment, I can better know the origins of thoughts. Discernment is connected to the Tree of Wisdom (also called, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil), which is partly why I consider the eating of its fruit to be so important.

[Dankquanicus]

@JoSecundus

I think our conversation has been very civil and beneficial so far.

It has been! Great to have such an interesting conversation

@JoSecundus

I see, so you see prayer as being less mechanical and more personal.

I believe that prayer can be quite mechanical, but it can be very personal and I think a personal relationship is great! In Greek religion, I know there is emphasis on building “kharis” with the Gods. (Here’s a very nice article on what that is: Baring the Aegis: Kharis (Χάρις); our relationship with the Gods)

I follow what the Platonists and Aristotle say regarding the Gods existing in a state of perfect divine happiness. I don’t believe that They experience anger towards anyone. Aristotle says that anger is desire for retribution, if I’m not mistaken, but I don’t think anyone can do wrong against the Gods.
In Hermeticism there is one thing it says is an offence against the Gods, however:

Irreverence is mankind’s greatest offence against the gods; for the gods’ work is to do good, men’s to show reverence, and for the spiritual powers to serve. Whatever else men have the audacity to undertake through error, recklessness, compulsion (which they call destiny), or ignorance, the gods will hold them guiltless. Only irreverence comes under judgement.

-Corpus Hermeticum, Book XVI.11, translated by Clement Salaman et al in “The Way of Hermes” p. 78

I don’t necessarily agree with this, but it shows one Graeco-Egyptian view at the time. And in principle, being creators and governors of the world, I think it is great to show reverence to Them. I am also open to the idea of divine punishment as in Plato’s ‘Laws’ as a kind of cosmic order, as in Plato’s philosophy “evil” is more like a sickness of the soul, and the administration of justice is like medicine for the soul (See: Plato, Gorgias). So, I could see it as a kind of cosmic dance of learning and maintaining the proper survival and ordering of the Cosmos. But, evidently this cosmic order is not like our human system of crime and punishment. I think it’s also possible that simply our own soul suffers when committing evil acts and we essentially are our own punishment. So, I’m undecided on this personally.

Something further on mankind’s relationship with the Gods, in Hermeticism the Gods are essentially mankind’s older siblings, because we are all created by God (And mankind was not always incarnated). “God” in Hermeticism is similar to ‘The One’ in Platonism - The ultimate source of all, ineffable, beyond all (But God is everything at the same time, or everything is part of God, not separated). Technically God is not a God, since They are beyond Godhood. They have no beginning and no end. I’ve seen Them called the “Godhead” in modern times as a result.
Since the early Church fathers were quite heavily influenced by Platonism, it’s easy to recognize aspects of this in Christian theology.

Something interesting to me is that the Hermeticists did not see the God the Jews worshipped as God. In the PGM, we see that they saw the God the Jews worshipped as the same as Aion. This makes sense, since in one of the books of the Corpus Hermeticum, it is said that everything rests within Aion, and so Aion is the highest of the Gods below God, but They are not God.
The Greeks, through interpretatio Graeca, saw the God the Jews worship commonly as Dionysos, which I find interesting because this was before Christianity, and a huge amount of links can be drawn between Jesus and Dionysos.
Less commonly, some Roman authors (Namely, Iuvenalis, Petronius, and Florus) saw the God the Jews worship as Caelus.

Apologies since that is a bit off topic! It’s just something interesting, but taking it into practice, like many of the Mediterranean peoples, I see the Gods as more or less the same across cultures. I see Iuppiter as the same as Zeus, for example. This is a pretty natural thing to occur among polytheist peoples like the Romans and Greeks because they saw the Gods as wide-ranging being that the world is part of. So, the Dawn is the same whether you call Her “Dawn” in English, “Eos” in Greek, “Aurora” in Latin, or “Aya” in Akkadian (At least, I think that is Akkadian? I don’t know much about Mesopotamian history currently).
However, following Lucius, I don’t believe that They are necessarily the same on the level of Daimon. But, regardless, following a Medieval tradition, when I pray to the Planets I call Them by Their names in many different languages.

@JoSecundus

Do you see any significant difference between the type of prayer you’ve described and Christian prayer, besides the number of Gods of course?

I think they’re pretty much the same, as far as I understand! Of course, not all Christian prayer is like that either, but Theurgical Christian prayer seems to be the same!
I think some people, both modern polytheists that come from a Christian background and Christians themselves, think that polytheist religions are the “opposite” of Christianity, but that’s usually very far from the case, and this idea in recent times might have some influence from the Satanic panic, I think (In any case, it seems to be propaganda).
Christianity takes heavy influence from Greek culture itself, too, but other polytheist religions are also similar in many regards.

@JoSecundus

So, would you say you’re defining what a body is as something which acts as a means to interact with the world and with other things in the world? Or in what way are you defining what a body is?

Very interesting question! I haven’t thought about this much before. For humans, I believe it’s a way to interact with the material world, but for Gods it may be a bit more nuanced than that. As Iamblichus says in De Mysterii, The One is like a fountain that overflows, from its superabundance it extends as far as it possibly can by nature. So, I think it is by nature that the Gods extend as far as They can (They are not separate from God/The One). So, it’s not that They create the material world to interact with it, necessarily, but simply by Their nature They extend as far as They can.

[Dankquanicus]

@JoSecundus

One way in which they interact with us is through our thoughts, since I am convinced that our minds are spiritual and not material. If someone has discernment, they can know which thoughts are from angels, which are from demons, and which are from God or from another source. In this, the way in which they communicate with us is subtle and is not always accompanied by a material manifestation.

I definitely agree with this, that our thoughts can be guided, that they are spiritual, and that we can recieve dreams from a spiritual source. Although, following Roman and Greek practice, I believe that the Gods can also communicate through omens (As well as dreams). Like in The Illiad where the Achaians are shown that they will win the war through a serpent that ate 8 chicks and the mother bird, or how one interpreter of the flight of birds learns why Apollon is sending the Achaians plagues and what they ought to do to stop it; how in Euripides’ ‘Ion’, Ion is warned about the plot to kill him through omens; how in Ovid’s ‘Metamorphoses’ the Gods warn Myrrha to not proceed through many omen, and so on! The Roman state was generally very focused on omens as messages from the Gods.
Plotinus in his Second Ennead says that the Cosmos is one Unified Living Being, and it is through the unity of all things that one part of the body of the Cosmos can reveal things about a different part.

@JoSecundus

However, I do believe that even the archangels can appear as humans at times. This is evident in many parts of the Scriptures. For example, in the book of Tobit, Raphael appears as a man and even conceals his identity as an archangel until after he has helped Tobias. The writer of Hebrews also says: “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares” (Hebrews 13:2).

Very interesting! I remember the same in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. There are similar stories about the Gods in various Greek, Roman, and Norse sources that I can think of, but philosophically the Platonists did not think that the Gods can appear like that to humans because of Their distance to the world. But, They can appear through Daimons, I believe, although I’m not sure if traditional sources explicitly say that.
There was a common belief that Pythagoras was the God Apollon incarnated. Iamblichus wrote a biography on Pythagoras, in which he seems to disagree that Pythagoras was necessarily Apollon (At least, the highest form of Apollon), but that Pythagoras was a soul part of the retinue of Apollon before descending into the world.

@JoSecundus

As for demons, they may act according to their own wills and answer our prayers to them as they will, even against the will of God.

I think this is probably another major difference between Christian belief and the belief of the polytheist cultures around the early Church (Mazdayasna, however, seems to teach free will, as Yasna 30.4 seems to teach, and it seems like it is a part of the modern beliefs of those following Mazdayasna, but I’m only familiar with one author!). In Hermeticism, it is not possibly for anyone or anything to be against the will of God:

This Supreme Good belongs to nothing else but to God alone. For He lacks nothing, lest any desire to possess anything may render Him evil, nor can anything be lost to Him which would make Him grieve, for grief is the heritage of evil. No being is mightier than God, by whom He could be treated as an enemy, nor is it possible for Him to suffer any injustice by anyone and therefore He will love everyone. No being is disobedient to Him which would provoke His anger, nor is any being wiser which would provoke His jealousy.

-Corpus Hermeticum, Book VI.1, translated by Clement Salaman et al in “The Way of Hermes”, p. 37-38

In texts like Corpus Hermeticum Book XII.6-7, it’s clear that here mankind is held to not have free will but are subject to fate while in our material body, but the highest part of the soul can gain free will, although this still does not change our actions. I’ve heard that this is similar in Stoicism. Platonism does hold that there is free will, but that there is much that is fated, but I’m not sure what the particular teachings of this are.

I personally tend to believe that mankind is at least mostly subject to fate, and this is shaped by my practice in traditional astrology and other forms of divination, but I’m open to the idea that we can sometimes excercise free will when we are not acting from desire or passion.

I’m curious, what do you think about God being all-knowing and all-powerful?

[Philomage]

I find it interesting that modern esoteric thought has to constantly emphasize that it’s neither offensive nor exclusive, and nobody is wrong and everyone is right. I find it interesting until I remember that it isn’t modern esoteric thought, but internet etiquette that has embedded itself therein.

Likewise, I believe genuine esoteric systems are based on genuine revelations, as in an individual opened their awareness to what lies beyond conventional reality framing and perception.

Then they reached for a mythic structure within which to insert their revelation. This is one of those arts, the ability to frame the transcendent with the mythic, that has either become the purview of religion and business (as in entertainment), or is outright not very well handled.

That is very difficult in the internet age because it really is not something most can consider without quite a bit of cognitive dissonance (unless they pretend they are taking it seriously, as in role playing).

Nevertheless, I agree with the approach of basing one’s esoteric approach- on a traditional mythos or even a blend of myths and contexts. The idea is for the revelation to make sense to the whole of the mind, even the analytical one so one can lie in the middle of the right and left pillars, so to speak. Then the eye is single.

In my experience, the body does fill with “light” (not necessarily a visual experience). That and other experiences and encounters are more literal than one might assume. While allegory isn’t absolute in esoteric understanding (where the patterns are discerned before they are applied), the discernment itself in terms of gradient between allegory and experience is a product of chronic exposure to the “unseen”.

I agree that fate is a force to be reconned with. There is natural fate, in my view. That means everything is interconnected so the world-soul or presence, if you will, imposes limits on what humans can and will do in the same way the human body has ways to prevent mutations that would threaten its equilibrium.

Artifical fate, is a form of tyranny imposed by “unknown” factors that are not the natural condition ofi the world. Gnostics called them Archons. But to get a bit radical perhaps, we know every angel in Abrahamic lore has its own “office”, but no free will. IN other words angels are not individuals.

What is the office of Lucifer? And why is Lucifer different? I would say, Lucifer is the angel of individuality, the one bestowing individuality where it can be. That would make Lucifer the angel of alienation as well, since existential separation leading to alienation would be needed for any being to hold self awareness as not of its Source. Just a thought that I may develope in another thread.

[JoSecundus]

@Dankquanicus

Something further on mankind’s relationship with the Gods, in Hermeticism the Gods are essentially mankind’s older siblings, because we are all created by God (And mankind was not always incarnated).

I’ve heard of this idea before, and I have read that Origen (a quite controversial figure within Christianity) taught that the soul existed before the body as well. Of course, in traditional Christian thought, this is not the case. I am also of the personal opinion that the soul came into being simultaneous to the body’s coming into being. Is what you’re saying something similar to this idea of the per-existence of the soul? If so, did souls have any sort of consciousness before coming into the body?

@Dankquanicus

Since the early Church fathers were quite heavily influenced by Platonism, it’s easy to recognize aspects of this in Christian theology.

From I’ve been reading and hearing, this seems true and is not something I have much of a problem with.

@Dankquanicus

I think some people, both modern polytheists that come from a Christian background and Christians themselves, think that polytheist religions are the “opposite” of Christianity, but that’s usually very far from the case, and this idea in recent times might have some influence from the Satanic panic, I think (In any case, it seems to be propaganda).
Christianity takes heavy influence from Greek culture itself, too, but other polytheist religions are also similar in many regards.

I agree with you here. Christianity, the Mosaic religion, and Judaism arose in Pagan polytheistic cultures and were not afraid of taking on Pagan concepts, even integrating these concepts into the broader Christian mythos. Again, I don’t see much of a problem with this, and I don’t Christians in general should have a problem with this. In my view, Islam more than Christianity tends to want to present itself as being strictly monotheistic and completely opposed to all things Pagan.

@Dankquanicus

So, I think it is by nature that the Gods extend as far as They can (They are not separate from God/The One). So, it’s not that They create the material world to interact with it, necessarily, but simply by Their nature They extend as far as They can.

I think that the different biblical descriptions of God having body parts has to do with this extension of power and ability, if I’m understanding you correctly. For example, I don’t think that God has material eyes in the same way that you and I do, but he does have the ability to see things. For example: “For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him.” (2 Chronicles 16:9 ESV).

[JoSecundus]

@Dankquanicus

Although, following Roman and Greek practice, I believe that the Gods can also communicate through omens (As well as dreams).

I don’t see much of a place for omens being acceptable in the Christian tradition. Miracles tend to act as signs more often within Christianity to confirm the truth of a revelation. However, the idea of God or angels coming to us in dreams and visions is certainly a part of Christianity. For example, an angel tells Joseph, the one to whom Mary had been betrothed, in a dream: “that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:20 ESV). In the Old Testament, a different Joseph, the son of Jacob and Rachel, was able to interpret dreams as well, indicating that dreams are a valid means of interaction with the divine and the angelic (and in my view also demonic) in Christianity.

@Dankquanicus

There are similar stories about the Gods in various Greek, Roman, and Norse sources that I can think of, but philosophically the Platonists did not think that the Gods can appear like that to humans because of Their distance to the world.

I think that in Christianity there is this dance between divine transcendence and divine immanence. In fact, even before the incarnation of Christ, God appears, seemingly as a man, to Abraham:

And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth

–Genesis 18:1, 2 ESV

Now, typically when an English translation says “LORD” in all capital letters, it indicates that the letters YHWH were used, indicating the divine name Yahweh. In other words, the text is indeed saying that the God Yahweh himself appeared to Abraham. Hence, not just the angelic spirits but even God can appear directly to us, although this should hardly be a controversial thing to say, since the incarnation of Christ is quite foundational to the entire Christian religion.

@Dankquanicus

I think this is probably another major difference between Christian belief and the belief of the polytheist cultures around the early Church (Mazdayasna, however, seems to teach free will, as Yasna 30.4 seems to teach, and it seems like it is a part of the modern beliefs of those following Mazdayasna, but I’m only familiar with one author!). In Hermeticism, it is not possibly for anyone or anything to be against the will of God:

I agree that this is probably a major difference between Christianity and the Pagan cultures at the time. In fact, the concept of free will is so incredibly important to me, that it alone would probably be enough for me to choose (freely) to adhere to one belief system over another.

@Dankquanicus

I personally tend to believe that mankind is at least mostly subject to fate, and this is shaped by my practice in traditional astrology and other forms of divination, but I’m open to the idea that we can sometimes excercise free will when we are not acting from desire or passion.

A question that naturally arises is: in what way are humans responsible for their moral actions in a fatalistic or deterministic system? Now, it seems that you are open to the idea of free will. What relation does free will have to our actions regarding ethics? In Christianity, there is a very controversial school theology called Calvinism, some forms of which even teach double predestination (the idea that God predetermines which individuals will go to heaven and which ones will go to hell).

@Dankquanicus

I’m curious, what do you think about God being all-knowing and all-powerful?

I think that God is those things at least in the sense of his being the First Principle. However, there is this idea that humans, angels, and demons are all divine; and thus, we and our wills all have power to some extent. It is also very clear in the canonical book of the Wisdom of Sirach that humans have free will:

He Himself created man in the beginning And left him in the counsel of his will. If you will, you will keep the commandments And faithfully do His good pleasure. He has set before you fire and water; If you will, stretch forth your hand. Life and death are before mankind, And whichever he chooses, it will be given to him.

–Sirach 15:14-17 SAAS

Also, in the New Testament, Jesus says:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

–Matthew 23:37 ESV

Hence, the will of man resisted the will of God and prevented God from doing what he willed to do.

John of Damascus connects free will with the faculty of reason, so that any creature with the ability to reason has free will:

Every one, then, who deliberates does so in the belief that the choice of what is to be done lies in his hands, that he may choose what seems best as the result of his deliberation, and having chosen may act upon it. And if this is so, free-will must necessarily be very closely related to reason. For either man is an irrational being, or, if he is rational, he is master of his acts and endowed with free-will. Hence also creatures without reason do not enjoy free-will: for nature leads them rather than they nature, and so they do not oppose the natural appetite, but as soon as their appetite longs after anything they rush headlong after it.

(John Damascene, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book 2, Ch. 27, translated by E. W. Watson and L. Pullan).

My opinion is that our free will is such that it can resist and thwart the will of God.

[Dankquanicus]

@Philomage

I find it interesting that modern esoteric thought has to constantly emphasize that it’s neither offensive nor exclusive, and nobody is wrong and everyone is right. I find it interesting until I remember that it isn’t modern esoteric thought, but internet etiquette that has embedded itself therein.

Aggression in argument isn’t very helpful to most communities like this. I’ve seen communities like that become echo chambers and just needlessly hateful places. There’s definitely a good application for anger, I’d say, but generally disrespect is a destroyer of a lot of communities without good reason, and places like this tend to attract people following all sorts of different paths.

In any case, it is actually a rule of the forum to be civil:

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[Dankquanicus]

@JoSecundus

Is what you’re saying something similar to this idea of the per-existence of the soul? If so, did souls have any sort of consciousness before coming into the body?

Oh yes, the Hermetica (And Platonist works) certainly teach the pre-existence of the soul prior to incarnation, as well as its immortality. In the first book of the Corpus Hermeticum, man’s soul is created beyond the material world, has conciousnes, and even participated in creation (Corpus Hermeticum, Book I.13), but upon discovering nature man descended to unite with it (Which is not necessarily seen as a negative thing, but the Hermetica encourages souls upwards to unite with God once again).

In Platonism, as I understand it, each soul was once part of the retinue of a specific God as one of Their Daimons, but fell into the world of generation and corruption, and now makes its way back upwards. I believe this is from Plato’s ‘Parmenides’, presented in mythical form, but I am yet to read that dialogue. Plato gives a different account in ‘Timaeus’ suggesting that the Celestial Gods were tasked by the Craftsman to create mankind together. Timaeus is traditionally (Even by Plato’s nephew) said to be allegorical and purposefully contradictory to his other dialogues for the purpose of instruction. So, I think Plato at times contradicts himself to sharpen the reader’s intellect and keep them reasoning instead of simply accepting doctrines.

I personally also believe that the soul existed prior to incarnation, having conciousness before incarnation. Following Hermeticism, Platonism, and Pythagoreanism, I also believe in reincarnation.

@JoSecundus

Again, I don’t see much of a problem with this, and I don’t Christians in general should have a problem with this. In my view, Islam more than Christianity tends to want to present itself as being strictly monotheistic and completely opposed to all things Pagan.

Christians have, however, historically been very opposed to polytheists. I mean, part of the doctrine of a lot of orthodox Christianity is that not only are all the Gods the polytheists worship “false Gods”, but also actively evil, causing illness and destruction and decieving worshippers. Islam, to my knowledge, simply holds that They aren’t real.
The Roman Christians and Church fathers are also quite notoriously known for insisting that philosophers like Plato, Aristotle, and Cicero were “secretly monotheists” and kind of “proto-Christians”, seemingly so that it would be acceptable to advocate for them as much as they did. Perhaps it can be said from that that they were at least a little scared of taking ideas from polytheists, but were still willing to do so by rejecting them being entirely polytheists or some aspect of them like that.

@JoSecundus

I think that the different biblical descriptions of God having body parts has to do with this extension of power and ability, if I’m understanding you correctly.

Hmm I think I may have given off the wrong idea from how you explained it there. I follow a monist world-view in which everything is literally part of God and the Gods, so I did not mean it as being symbolic of Their powers or abilities, but rather that all things are part of Them.

[Dankquanicus]

@JoSecundus

I think that in Christianity there is this dance between divine transcendence and divine immanence. In fact, even before the incarnation of Christ, God appears, seemingly as a man, to Abraham:

Very interesting excerpt from Genesis!

@JoSecundus

In fact, the concept of free will is so incredibly important to me, that it alone would probably be enough for me to choose (freely) to adhere to one belief system over another.

How come this in particular is so important in your decision to follow a particular belief system, if you don’t mind me asking?

@JoSecundus

A question that naturally arises is: in what way are humans responsible for their moral actions in a fatalistic or deterministic system? Now, it seems that you are open to the idea of free will. What relation does free will have to our actions regarding ethics? In Christianity, there is a very controversial school theology called Calvinism, some forms of which even teach double predestination (the idea that God predetermines which individuals will go to heaven and which ones will go to hell).

I understand why, especially on the Western side, fate can be seen as very troublesome to Christians. So, perhaps I should firstly say that Greek and Roman religion generally does not teach eternal punishment or “damnation”. That does not mean that forms of this does not appear in different polytheistic belief systems: There’s one part in the Corpus Hermeticum that suggests that a soul can be eternally punished (But, I’ve seen it quite reasonably argued that this is separation from creation only for this cycle of creation, before everything is purified), and some part of Egyptian religion at one point held an idea of eternal annihilation (This belief of the Ancient Egyptians is very well known, but I’ve read from followers of Kemetism both on this forum and elsewhere that this was not the case at all times or all places).
However, this is generally not something I’ve seen in Greek or Roman religion or their philosophical schools otherwise.

Now, the second thing that I want to say is that Western forms of Christianity tend to see sin more like crime, and they see the interaction between it and God’s punishment more like how crime and punishment is seen in Western society - “You get what you deserve”.
However, Orthodox (Big ‘O’) Christianity tends to see sin more like illness, and of course you hope that sick loved ones will get well. Pre-Christian Greek culture and philosophy is the same when it comes to doing evil and being unvirtuous. Plato in ‘Laws’ suggests that all law should aim at building virtue in a society, and all punishment should aim at rehabilitation if at all possible. In the same line, in ‘Gorgias’ he says that legislation is to the soul what physical training is to the body, and the administration of justice is to the soul what medicine is to the body.

With that, following Plato’s ‘Alcibiades I’ and ‘Meno’, I believe that following evil consists in ignorance. It is a well-known idea of Plato’s that if a person has knowledge of what is good, they will follow it. Those with knowledge (Including knowledge of virtue), he says, have good lives and are successful in so far that they know what they are doing.

Fate has no influence on ethics for me. If a person is destructive, and indeed in modern times we hold that some conditions of the body (Like serious mental illnesses) make individuals very violent, they should not be part of society. If they can be helped, then that is great.
To put it this way, if someone is an asshole they’re still not going to have many friends. So, it’s still great to do good and to do things well and to seek knowledge because it is advantageous to us, to those around us (And most of us have empathy), and society, and builds happiness in general.

Fate simply means that there is an order to the Cosmos.

@JoSecundus

John of Damascus connects free will with the faculty of reason, so that any creature with the ability to reason has free will:

As far as I understand, Platonists also connected reason with the part of the soul that can come to excercise free will. This seems to be present in Plato’s ‘Timaeus’, but from what I’ve seen this is likely discussed more fully in ‘Phaedo’ (Where the soul is likened to a chartiot drawn by horses), but I am yet to read that dialogue fully.