By this, do you consider demons to be dissolutionary principles?
They are beings of the black sun, the transitionary current of death that siphons and putrifies manifestation into uncreation. (To open for new creation)
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What is your source for this?
Sure, if we rely on personal experiences, we may say that everything and nothing is true, as no doubt many have even experienced the contrary of what you say here! So, this is why I am speaking of particular philosophies and traditions.
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That’s kind of what I was thinking. I know more than one Pagan who doesn’t believe in angels and would piss their pants laughing at that notion, although I do tend to agree with it somewhat…
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I’ve also seen some practitioners devoted to Demons perform rites to banish Angels using Demons, which wouldn’t make sense if Angels have more power and authority than Demons.
Now, I also remember reading of a practitioner who tried to bind an Angel and got burnt for it, but no doubt you’ll find practitioners with varying experiences on this matter.
Of course, I don’t believe all of reality is subjective, but we ought also to be careful of taking personal experiences to be the entire truth (Especially when it’s an experience simply seen in the mind). And at the same time we should be careful about thinking reality is entirely subjective, too.
We can certainly find some patterns in practice, but chances are these won’t apply universally!
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That’s something I did once or twice in the past, but seemed more like they left out of annoyance than necessity or obedience. Haha
Agreed.
I think you may have meant “objective,” here perhaps?
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Haha, that sounds about right! 
Which makes me think, another difference of perspective I have in this discussion is that I don’t believe that the Gods can be banished, because everything is part of them. For example, to banish the Celestial Venus would be to banish one seventh of reality. In my view, it cannot be done.
Even beyond the Celestial World to the Gods beyond the World, to banish Thor would be to remove the quality of Strength itself in everything (And, this not simply giving things “weakness”, as it is part of the same quality).
Oh no, I did mean to say “subjective”, just to further make it clear that I am not suggesting anyone carelessly mix and match systems together. But, I also of course don’t believe that there is one objective reality. The true nature of reality likely cannot be comprehended by us.
In Arabic/European Astrology, Venus is generally considered to be a benefic, but among some of the “Aztec” peoples, Venus was considered to be a malefic (As far as I understand it). And, I don’t see this as an issue.
In Arabic/European astrology, there are 28 Mansions of the Moon, while in Jyotisha, there are 27, yet both systems work. So, reality seems to be stranger than there simply being one “correct” reality. But, it’s also not whatever we make of it, either.
What do you think? I think we’re mostly on the same page, but would love to hear more of what you think!
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Ah, I see what you mean now.
Perhaps the time period (possible millenia apart? I’m not as versed in History as I would like to be), or the region they were in having different loctsions in the sky relating to malefic stars or constellations?
I like the idea of the moon having 27 mansions! The moon heavily relates to the number 9 to me, via Qabalah and the 9 month gestation period.
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I’m afraid I’m not sure what led to Venus to be considered as such in any case, but you’ll find more variety in the associations of particular Fixed Stars.
The Pleiades are suggested to be benefic in the Bible (Job 38:31), but Manilius suggests that they are malefic (See, Astronomica). The Medieval De Quindecim Stellis (That is, Hermes on the 15 Fixed Stars) suggests they can be malefic in predictive astrology, but they are benefic in astrological magic.
Certainly you can find many correspondences using both systems!
Here is an excerpt from the Preface of Christopher Warnock’s book on the 28 Mansions of the Moon:
In addition to the Mansions’ interrelationship with the manifold unity of the Cosmos, we discovered unexpected symmetry and order in the progression of the Mansions through their 28-fold cycle. That the Egyptian royal cubit was composed of 28 fingers and 4 hands, that Picatrix alluded to the 28 vertebrae of the back and that 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 = 28 showed us that we were only skimming the surface of the complex sympathies and interconnections unified by the 28 Mansions of the Moon and their four-fold harmony of seven.
—Christopher Warnock, The Mansions of the Moon (2nd Edition), Preface, Published by Renaissance Astrology, 2019, Kindle Edition
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Here’s one of my videos about Gremory, one of my favorite spirits. She can really level out emotions to remain logical and focused on yourself. (and tasks) She makes life more organized and productive, along with generally better social interaction. 
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I love these. Haha
I’d love to hear about your process sometime if you’re willing to share, perhaps in DM if necessary.
King Purson (Ars Goetia #20) @DarkGodofQlippa
Here’s a spirit who simply does not get enough attention for the great things he can do. King Purson (Ars Goetia #20) can handle divination, lucid experiences, protection, social favor, gain dignities, and discovery of opportunities. He can also help you to inspire many people through music and other artforms.
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He’s got style…
Yeah. He’s like a middle aged (but still strong) adventurer who knows secrets of many lost civilizations and has endless stories to tell. A total traveler and charismatic public figure type.
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Duke Vual (Ars Goetia #47)
Vual is an interesting spirit. A very fiery one with vibes of earthy greenery and nature spirits. She also fancies the finer things and deals in bringing people together, both as lovers and friends. (Mostly through compassionate treatment) I’m pretty sure she falls under Paimon’s power, and seems to be a Jinn-like entity, though I’m not 100% sure.
Originally showed as a male. But after a while of not calling on him, the female form came back. I’ve noticed some spirits are truly male but show as female for some people, then vice versa. Vual Seems to be truly female who often appears as male to many.
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Samael (Archangel of Geburah)
By the “Book of Armadel’s” description, he teachings magic, necromancy, jurisprudence, and occult sciences with facility. Here is taught the abuses of necromancy by communication of which can expose a man to danger, communications which may link a man to the angels and god, or to the devil and infernal spirits so to connect with all things pleasing.
In my experience, he’s an Archangel. He is not fallen and never was throughout all of esoteric history relating to Kabbala, though his power is the progenitor of all fallen angels and Satans, (Adversaries) also holding dominion over the Qliphoth. He’s not OF the Qliphoth, but RULES over it. His office is the necessary destruction to gods creative power, as to perpetuate the cycles of eternity in movement. He’s also the executioner in justice and retribution. The things deemed guilty as a threat to greater balance, he destroys them with prejudice and rage.
He is indeed also a jurisprudence character. He can keep emotions cool under stress to have better perception of your situation and the judgements you pass on the world, also making people better favor your position to treat you kinder. (more rationally) He is also indeed the great angel of sorcery. He has brought the dead to me, assisted me in summoning, protected me physically and spiritually, banished all spirits no matter how powerful, as well as manipulate authorities in my favor. (While in the Army) A great ally to have if you truly need a protector and advisor of omnipotent power.
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Recently ran into this video I wanted to share with the forum. Many Left Hand Path magicians and pagan witches (especially on social media) don’t understand most of western occult practice is directly linked to medieval church exorcism. Been saying this for years, but many witches just call me a Christian in denial. (as if I’m supposed to find that offensive or something, like an insult) 
The roman church was always VERY involved in magick and still is. There’s a whole current behind it utilizing the power of angels, demons, the dead, and ritual ceremony.
The Rosicrucians had this understood as well. The three aspects of being: Mind, Body, and Spirit. (God, Christ, and Holy Spirit) Christ is the gnostic idea of perfect union with the higher self. (God in flesh) The trinity of consciousness is also the means of utilizing the 7 spheres (planets) of creation to achieve alchemical transformation. The unfolding of which is symbolized by the blossoming rose, opening upon “rapture”. (the point of transmutation) This is illustrated in many Renaissance Alchemical artworks as well. Relatively similar concept to the Serpent, Egg, and Child of Fire from Greco-Roman Orphic tradition. (Phanes/Mithras)
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@Acuna my dude I’ve been saying this for years and everytime I say a god damn thing about this subject all I get is criticism and ridicule most from directions that don’t even understand what I’m talking about to begin with. I’ve all but given up. Let others. They can think what they want its not my job to be the one fix that. I’m as interested in being shown something different as they are. I’m sorry but I’m calling a spade a spade here.
Now this meanders quite Abit and it could be said that some of this veers close to off topic ok. If it’s that offensive to anyone , well I’m only a little bit sorry but by all means flag it, and hopefully someone with authority will see it the flag artists way, that’s ok too. So @Acuna I may be responding to your post which responded to my post but I’m not directing this spiel at you, or at any one person in particular. This is just some thoughts on the whole subject and some subsubjects related.
Let’s talk about…
Mere christian mysticism…some of us are extremely dismissive of this or any other JCI related forms of magic. Well i hate to break it to you if this is you, but 2/3 of this world is currently on its back with G-d having his foot on their throat. They the sheep are off to be shorn of their wool ( and dignities) and then led off to slaughter by their good Shepard ( that’s his job actually right, protect them guide , them, teach them submission and humility until it is time for the horrible moments??)
Sorry but this terrible power is very much in control of this world whether or not we chose to ally with old gods, forgotten gods, or gods in exile of those that have abdicated. That’s just real reality. You don’t have like it, respect it or agree with it, it simply is.
Fuck Christian mysticism has permeated even the LHP and it’s practices and has for centuries ( reading of tea leaves by orthodox Greeks 
, hoodoo and voodoo including psalms and scriptures, yada yada I think you’re starting to see where mere christian mysticism has pulled the very fabric of the center towards the right.
To say the Catholics the sufis, the Rosicrucians, the kabbalists can’t field a strong practitioner is a really dangerously blind and arrogant point of view. True most of the RHP magicians are a truly pitiable lot, the fawn over light and love and angels and manifesting the will of the ALL in this work and constantly seeking to purify themselves of their “base” desires…in this world 
. That’s some bullass shit I’m gonna be the first to say it. Yeah they may out umber us vastly , vastly, but the quality of magician we find typically on our end of the spectrum is MUCH stronger. I think almost anyone could agree on that. It’s because our rites of passage and initiations are “if it doesn’t kill you or send you to a mental hospital you can call it an initiation, or just on the job training idk”
But, but, but if we think they are bereft of any real powerhouse magicians. We are dead wrong. Some of those dudes would break their foot off in alot of our asses that’s real. Baal Shem tov, Bardon, count st. Germain, it goes on and on. Now we have heroes and celebrity magicians too jannes and jambres, Marie lavaeux , Crowley ( sometimes), Mike Bee ( 
nah I’m fuckin with y’all chill lol )
Now the left and right aren’t the only ones that can field a real badass either, the center or middle or unaligned paths contain some real hardcore practices that make people capable of nearly super human shit too
Fuck there are Tibetian middle way practitioners that melt snow in on the earth in an auric radius boundary where they sit shirtless in meditation in the falling snow. Dudes!!! they have contests for who can melt the snow line farther than the other… yes 
!!!
…
Yeah the Rosicrucians were some, hell, are some pretty bad ass RHP practitioners. I took my Shem rites from a masonic Rosicrucian circle and my shit is banging when I use Shem. Catholic magic, yes it’s real it’s alive and well.
Now look even the language of the the ars Goetia the lemegeton it’s not written like this, “then the magician shall x, y, or z” nooooooooo it’s like this “and thus the excorcist will prepare x, y, z”
Excorcist…, It’s important to note there were certain types of priests typically Marian and Jesuit factions and now in this day even opus dei dabbles here and there. Their training resembles ours very closely, the core skills truly nearly mirror ours. That language though the excorcist in particular colors the entire book in a JCI flavor and where the LHP community loses interest is the taint of any JCI lore, or mention of anything JCI whatsoever , we begin bantering about what predated who and this and that and by the time it’s said and done you’ve got moderators of other forums ( NOT THIS ONE) screaming through the keyboard like a true digital warrior that she has proof in a book ( of questionable scholarship) that Belial was a God…or goddess rather?. ( in this instance it cites Belial as some … I think cannanite goddess guarding the entryway to the underworld or some shit idk I’m not buying it though. )
Look if you dont like JCI related things stick with a pantheon that didnt cross pollinate with it. There are plenty of mythologies both RHP and LHP that can satisfy the need to strip away any vestiges of JCI.
Well look if you want to call him that and dress him up in god clothes and make sacrifices to him and give him worship that is reserved for the divine only then do you, idgaf but I’m not gonna call him or any other Spirit that atleast wasn’t a god before it fell into “the Goetia, the book of evil spirits” the title of God. That’s just how I roll. She can take her favorite pacted spirit and worship until the end of time, trust me, he’ll allow this and treat her like the worshipper she wants to be…
Now I’m not gonna to take some new book of questionable scholarship and just jump on it. The book we ALL use is the lemegeton, the lesser key of Solomon. Sorry but that’s facts. Whether you agree with it or not as your upg or mood may dictate Belial is listed as a fallen angel. It is, what it is. So if we choose to deviate from accepted sources ( you know the ones we all draw from) based on our UPG and bandy that shit around in front of others like it’s facts all I’m saying is that’s a slippery slope.
( even though this sort of practicioner still entertains visits from spirits within the JCI pantheon regularly, they like to strip away if they can any vestiges of JCI history , tradition, or mythology from them to the point they actually no longer even remotely resemble the entity the rest of us would see hear or feel or know is “x”. This is dangerous and a deceptively seductive way of viewing things, I do not subscribe to this myself. )
So anyway yes there is plenty of magic in the church as it always was and will be , look at the priest during mass performing the eucharist, an act of transubstantiation. If that ain’t a magic show I don’t know what is. But they can keep their body and blood of Christ, none for me thx.
I just think the dismissive ( it’s not my cup of tea and I don’t actually know almost anything about what they believe or how they train ) attitude towards anything we don’t personally subscribe to in the occult creates dangerous blind spots. Each tradition has things that can be valuable to acquire, some traditions more than others sure. We are most in danger of losing what progress we made and ending the path forward before us when we are absolutely sure we are right. When we lose our awe of how vast this all truly is, when we don’t wonder at looking up in the sky at night anymore, when we start to be impressed by our own understanding and forget that we truly know very little even the best of us. We stop learning we stop being hungry we stop growing.
Let me give you a blind spot of mine for example and who knows what gems i missed because of this. All of us deal with this problem in some way or another… I don’t know a damn thing about alchemy, could give a fuck less to tell you the truth, I don’t know a damn thing about and I don’t want to know anything about it ( even if I have adopted some of these practices and I don’t know it which is highly likely I have) because I already have my mind and worldview and paradigm decided on and alchemy is not only uninteresting to me but it appears antiquated and dated. Now seeing it with a more open mind there are probably valuable things such as spiritual excercises or practices which could refine or augment my energy bodies making me run higher faster hotter and able to do more. That’s probably true. So look what I miss out on if I choose not to give it at least a good once over. Now if I give it a once over and I understand the nuts and bolts of the basic underlying theory and practice and I’m still not feeling it, then I’m leaving it behind. That’s just me.
Simply choosing dismissal though…guys that is a warning sign that Information can’t reach out mind through our senses because we have a river of denial in the way. If we don’t understand something it’s not going to hurt us to atleast develop a passing understanding of the current or its methods and perhaps understand the fruit of it’s practice and work before we shut the door to things we don’t understand. That isn’t growth, that isn’t spiritual maturity that’s simply deciding your right and chosing not to acknowledge anything that disagrees with your way thinking.
The step after that is to surround yourself with people that will nod and agree with this and then there is no chance a dissenting opinion or voice could even make a valid point on the subject that doesn’t agree with our way of seeing things.
The step after that is book burning and purging and this leads to… well pretty much what we’ve endured for the better part of 2000 years in the Christendoms and sultanates of the JCI faiths.
We can do better guys… and that applies to me too.
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I also think a lot of LHP magicians don’t understand that the black sun is very much a part of Christian esoteric alchemy, which is also illustrated in renaissance works. Black magicians work with the same death current as the church does, except the church uses it under the guise of “godly law” while black magicians just revere the dragon directly. The dragon is the ruling black sun current of this world. (primal force and death) But “transcending it” (the cycles of death) is a matter of theurgic belief and transmutation. (through death)
The Catholic church has always understood this (i.e. the death of Christ) but hid these symbolic alchemical philosophies deep within their biblical doctrines, while the literal views & laws were meant for the public to follow for society management. But only the highly initiated were permitted to be educated on these magickal concepts. This is evident within the Papacy as well. The overarching (ancient) alchemical concept is there. But it’s been utilized for their own power as a spiritual current, and a nation over centuries. (Israel is also a “spiritual current” nation as well)
There is legitimate power and wisdom behind the European, Roman esoteric current as it evolved. (the church) But my problem lately is how I’ve been met with nothing but backlash from agitated pagans and LHP people on social media. IDK, people just seem to like reveling in their own prejudices.
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